You guys are killing me.
I thought I was all set with a 357 carbine load but now after reading the 45-70 string I am re-thinking. So instead of a 158gr xtr-fp at 2000 would I be better off with a 180gr fp at 1600? It's a Marlin 357 mag. carbine.
This is my NH short range woods tool. Any thoughts?

My oldest son has a 450 Marlin... Its great and easy to load for....
It will be my next gun. If you are considering the 45-70 I would look long and hard at this one. he shoots a 300gr at 2100... very mild

Temmi,
"If you are considering the 45-70 I would look long and hard at this one. he shoots a 300gr at 2100... very mild"

NO, I was re-thinking my 357 deer load based on the velocity vs bullet weight discussion ABOUT the 45-70.

Actually, I am considering the next step up in perfomance when I can save the money but I think I have zeroed in on the 45-70 for many reasons but one is the fact that the 450 really doesn't provide any appreciable performane gains over an old stand-by work horse that has been around for a whole lot of years.

You know squirrelbait, there's just something about the 45-70 you can't put into words. If I could, it might be something like,"NOW THAT'S WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT!"
Keep it coming...

squirrelbait,

A bullet going 2000fps in the 160gr or so class should be able to take on deer and provide a slightly strighter trajectory then the 180gr going at a slower speed.

This seems more of a personal choise then anything to me anyways. I think the 158gr load would be fine though.

Dimitri

Choices like that squirrelbait are often better resolved by testing at the realistic ranges you will be hunting. Wet phone books or soggy newspaper can give some data relative to the two bullets you are considering (which is great if you are hunting wet phone books or soggy newspaper). Clay can be a good media as well for determining penetration. And, penetration is the name of the game.

In the process you can test various brands of bullets, too, and may be surprised at the differences. Of course, testing primers, various powders and bullet seating depths can only quardruple your testing options. Once all options are tested, you can rebarrel your rifle, confirm the results and enter that Zen Zone of Master Handloaders. I say this not sarcasticly, but, as a point of self revelation and confession.

My opinion would be the heavier bullet would have the advantage. The 357 Mag, great cartridge that it is, can be in the marginal area when taking deer sized game. The bullet needs to penetrate vital organs to kill and, here, weight has its advantages. Preferably, the bullet should exit game on hunting loads -- again an advantage of heavier bullets.

Have fun and let us know what direction you decided to take.

handloader, you kinda hit why I ask the question. I know there is only 20gr difference but if that gets me better end results I should go that direction. I know the 357 mag is marginal but out to 100yds-----as long as I can be sure of good clean kill shot, I am comfortable. I have a great, dependable load with the 158gr. bullet. Any day of the week I can go out and keep 2-3 inch groups with my shoot sticks----hunting position at that range.
I think I am over analyzing?

Squirrelbait,

Your 2-3 inch groups with shooting sticks tells me you have a good accurate hunting load for that ammo.

If this is the case if I was you I'd stick with it as you seem comfortable with it out to 100 yards and you are able to keep it within good groupings for feild set ups. Why change when you seem to be aready "set"

Dimitri

I agree with Dimitri......why mess with a good thing? If you shoot the 158's well and are comfortable, I wouldn't change a thing. I have killed several deer with my 44 mag Ruger carbine with 180 gr @ about 1750 fps, and have tried stepping up to the 210 and 240 gr loads. My gun doesn't like them as well and I see no real advantage in the extra weight. Since you're only looking at 100 yds or so anyway, trajectory, momentum, ft-lbs of energy and velocity are not that significant. Just go with what you shoot best. Sounds like you already found it.

Blaine

Dimitri and Blaine! Staying with what is proven!! That's for wimmen folk and children. (insert smiling face here) No sir -- experiment, refine and, sometimes, advance. Staying with a proven thing precludes reaching higher levels of performance. Oh, sure, there is a risk that something new may not prove as good, in which case one defaults to the tried and true. But, OTOH, just maybe something better can be achieved.

In that spirit, I must confess to having burned out a few barrels over the years. The perpetual search for smaller groups, deeper penetrating bullets, more uniform powders, et al, can, indeed, be a slippery slope. Often such efforts have little to do with the reality of hunting and are more the product of the eternal quest for the perfect load. Ah, grasshoppers all.

If nothing else, it provides a rationale to go to the range more often.

Now, squirrelbait, get out there, support your local dealer and buy some 180gr XTPs which you will probably find are more accurate and more manly loads. 158gr, indeed!

Handloader wrote:

Dimitri and Blaine! Staying with what is proven!! That's for wimmen folk and children.

Humm whats your defintion of Children ??

Anyways its his hunting load, not his "match" load so I'd personally stay with the sure thing. Sure he can burn out a barrel or 2 but its almost the end of August! Deer season will be here sooner then you think.

Dimitri

Now, THIS is why I come here!!!
Handloader, I sometimes find myself heading down your trail. The biggest problem is the resources require---time and MONEY
I also tend to over analyze if I am uncertain------this being case here.
Dimitri/Blaine, I think I am siding with you............but this thing about about wimmen folk and children, Handloaders getting me all wound up. ( )

Yeah, I'm gonna side with Dimitri and Blaine, too. After "experimenting" with various loads today at 200 and 600 yards and seeing the mediocre results, I wouldn't listen to a thing I have previously written or stated, including this post.

Squirrelbaiter, your comment about overanalyzing is just too much common sense. I've guided elk hunts for a number of years and the most successful hunter and guide I know uses a battered 280 Remington with an old Weaver steel tube scope. The wood is weathered badly and there is a light coat of rust everytime I see it. He has used 16 rounds of ammo in the past eight years, and that ammo wasn't the best stuff available when new. Now, I don't approve of that type of mistreatment, but, to him, the rifle was merely a tool to get the job done. OTOH, his tack was in perfect condition.

Good luck on your deer hunt. Blame Dimitri and Blaine if your bullet doesn't work properly and, next year, use the appropriate cartridge -- I recommend the 460 Weatherby for best results. Its a manly cartridge.

handloader wrote: most successful hunter and guide I know uses a battered 280 Remington with an old Weaver steel tube scope. The wood is weathered badly and there is a light coat of rust everytime I see it. He has used 16 rounds of ammo in the past eight years, and that ammo wasn't the best stuff available when new

Ya, but I like to burn powder and play.........when I can. Can't take the fun out of it.
Thanks for the inputs Guys. I enjoy this web site.

squirrelbait -

While you're rethinking your loads, try using Point Blank to check out the real differences.

Comparing Hornady 160g XTP-FP and 180g XTP-HP (DON'T use the 180g SIL bullet in a tube magazine!), at 2000fps and 1600fps respectively, the 160g offers 970fpe at 100 yards while the 180g offers only 729fpe.