Image vs Reality

Handloader · Posted: Sat Nov 04, 2006 11:29 pm Post subject: Image vs Reality

As with many on this forum, I have haunted various gunshops over the years and worked at several. Spending hours in such environs, one sees some patterns emerge and there is, therefore, a tendency to stereotype. Like most stereotypes, some elements of "truth" overwhelm enough to allow generalizations. Here are some:

Talkers. I have witnessed heated discussions over the "best" cartridge for taking specific species in which the 270, 280, 7RM, 06, 308 have been seriously nominated as having some superiority over the others. Amazing.
These selfsame talkers are also inclined to speculate about the best bullet when shooting elk at 600yds! Ballistic coefficients, velocities, ft lb energy and other factors are referenced with any of the handy reloading manuals, points made, points challenged. Observation: usually there are also some others around that usually remain quiet and don't participate. They are often the ones that share pictures of their kills and know how to actually shoot accurately.

Dreamers. We all have a defined self image. Not infrequently one can observe that self image is at odds with reality. For example, the guy that wants a rifle a pound or so lighter for the next hunt despite being 40, 50 or 60lbs overweight. Or, the buyer of a high dollar 1911 that still hasn't mastered the basics of shooting, laboring under the assumption that a technologically advanced firearm may make up for a lack of skill.

Authorities: You may have encountered this catagory at your favorite gunshop. He is the one that wants you to know that he knows everything about all subjects firearms related. He may be a customer or he may be the one behind the counter. The information is often flawed and often so subective that it is obvious to all listening except the impressionable. Regardless, he is always a bore and simply provides unwanted background chatter.

Our love of firearms, hunting and competition unite many of us, the vast majority of which are eager listeners and learners and helpers. Along the way, we assist others willingly and impart our experiences and knowledge. However skilled or proficient we may become, we share a desire to progress. But we inevitably encounter the talkers, the dreamers and the authorities (lumped together as BullShitters) and master the skills of avoiding their paths. It happens in most endeavors, not only the shooting sports. Spotting these characters and learning to navigate around them can only enhance our joy of the sport.

A shinning example of The Best of The Best is Rob Leatham. He lives in the Valley and shoots at Rio Salado range frequently. He is a people magnet and always has an encouraging word or recommendation for those around him. What a role model!

GroovyJack · Member Joined: May 21, 2005 Posts: 621 Location: Bama

Well said !!! Talkers and authorities I avoid like the plague , I either politely or unpolitely tell them if I want their advice or opinion I'll ask 'em .. Dreamers , I know a lot of them ..
The ones that get me are the ones you see that are 50-75 lbs overweight , and come into a store in camo with a blade that can be only described as a mastadon skinner .. I cringe at the sight ..

Bushmaster · Posted: Sun Nov 05, 2006 8:52 am Post subject: Re: Image vs Reality

Damned if I don't fit all four of those "stereotypes". I'm a "talker", I'm a "dreamer", I'm an "authority" and I will bend over backwords to help someone. A "talker" because I love the sport and wish to intice others to join in. A "dreamer" because I can't afford all the firearms (the fancy ones) that I'd like to have. An "authority" because I have spent many hours (maybe years) reading, shooting and experimenting with what I have. And I am willing to spend hours teaching or showing others what I have learned. I'm a retired Sailor so I must also be a "Bullshitter" too. That would make me a braggart (you forgot one).

My small gun collection must fit within my budget and fill a large spectrum of jobs. Hence the Win Mod 94 in .30-30 and the Browning A-bolt in .30-06. My hand guns are also selected for the same reason. I'd like to replace my Firestar (CCW) with a new up-to-date weapon, but a new horse is probably in the cards first (priorties).

You, Sir, are trying to be a philosopher...Fortunately or unfortunately WE need all of these people if WE are to continue to "....Keep and to bear arms..."

Because of the nature of this subject and the many that it may offend for no good reason (I have a thick skin so go for it) I believe this should be the end of this string...

Dimitri · Super Member Joined: Nov 25, 2005 Posts: 5946

Quote::

The ones that get me are the ones you see that are 50-75 lbs overweight , and come into a store in camo with a blade that can be only described as a mastadon skinner

I see you have met gun store commando's. I normally avoid them too. As do I avoid the Mall ninja's that wear black BDU's and are looking to buy another laser or light to attach to there gun. Laughing

I've got to admit I'm alittle like a talker and try to intise people to join the mix of hunting/shooting/fishing. This especially applies to girls as I feel without many women joining the sport and them becomming a larger number in our ranks this sport will slowly start to die off as this sport needs new blood to keep going and a new image that doesn't invovle the "sterotype" men only club people who are agisnt hunting and fishing show to make people think its "barbaric". Cool

Dimitri

GroovyJack · Member Joined: May 21, 2005 Posts: 621 Location: Bama

Well Bushy there's a difference in trying to actually help someone and the examples he gives here .. I can tell the difference ..

Bushmaster · Posted: Sun Nov 05, 2006 3:02 pm Post subject: Re: Image vs Reality

Sorry Jack...I just don't see the difference in his oratation. All those (including me) aren't on this "hunting" web site or any of the others that I have encountered if we didn't fit in with most if not all of the "stereotypes" Handloader discussed. Or we wouldn't be here. To speak illy of his own kind is, in my opinion, poor judjement on his part. The only other site that I will have anything to do with, because of this, is The High Road. This site and THR are two of the few that deal mostly with hunting (here) and THR with reloading. For the most part on both, egos and personality bashing tend to stay at home. And that is as it should be...

Hot damn...Looked at some fine horses for sale today. No purchase yet.

george20042007 · Posted: Sun Nov 05, 2006 3:53 pm Post subject: Re: Image vs Reality

This blows my mind...I'm trying to figure out what the purpose is of this thread. Mind you, what Handloader says is true. I like what Bushy had to add. Now, mind you, I agree with all that has been written here, but, what's the point being made? We have these "types" in all walks of life. They are well known without anything being written here...what am I missing? Confused

Admittedly, since I retired, I realize I'm older, more knowledgeable than most, can thicken the subject with the best of them, still dream a lot, I am overweight (mostly from B. Sing around while gathering around the snack table, it's the American way of socializing), I can ride, shoot, rope, etc. and have more insurance, plus I can teach other's Very Happy

SOooooo...
Keep it coming...

P.S. And I want to thank all of you for putting up with me, you're a great bunch of guys. Very Happy

Handloader · Posted: Mon Nov 06, 2006 9:31 pm Post subject: Re: Image vs Reality

Hmmmmm . . . . interesting replies and I appreciate the viewpoints expressed. As to intent, George, it could be to see how others relate to a personal viewpoint, but, then, it could be some subtle form of psychological oncology on my part.

One retort, however, would be that gun ownership in and of itself should not be a qualifier as one of the Good Guys. There are gun owners that do a significant disservice to the rest of us and the sport(s) we enjoy that are firearm related. Two studies have concluded that between 18 to 25% of game killed in Arizona is done by poachers. Firearms are still used by many in the commission of crime. Obviously, neither of these catagories, poachers or criminals, would be welcomed in our store merely because they owned firearms, nor, I expect, would many on this list free associate with this type of scum.

Less obvious, the "talker" or the "authority" that would pontificate to the less informed, those new to the sport and potentially mislead them. I've overheard some in this catagory actually try to dissuade someone from buying a Remington or a Vanguard because they thought another brand was markedly superior. Or, that an XD Springfield was decidedly inferior to a Glock. Or, that the loading manuals are only "suggestions" and that the data is far too conservative. The list continued ad infinitum.

In working 50+ hours a week in firearms sales, much of my time is spent in sharing information, assessing needs and matching firearms to those needs. More importantly, is assisting customers in acquiring higher levels of skills and knowledge and in many cases we learning from many of our customers as well. There is a vast pool of experience and information within our customer base. This ranges from competitive shooting, varmint hunting, big game hunting to areas of personal defense. We know well our products, our job, and we know our limitations. Misinformation can be dangerous and increase liability when presented by either a company representative or someone visiting the store. If, in the process, we offend the "talker" and the "authority", I have no issue in doing so and little tolerance for them.

SwampFox · Posted: Tue Nov 07, 2006 8:35 am Post subject: Re: Image vs Reality

Just because a person likes guns does not, by any means, qualify their shop/show conduct as right, proper or even acceptable. It could and does at times mean they are simply an ill manered, uneducated clod, who likes guns.

Believe me, Handloader's list is very, very short. Smile

Ed

Matt1971 · Posted: Tue Nov 07, 2006 10:58 am Post subject: Re: Image vs Reality

I would be more like a "sponge type". I don't talk much or know much about Guns in genral atleast not to the extint you all know. Compared to most of you on here i would probably be considered "Firearm Challenged". I enjoy hunting and going to the shooting range but other then knowing what you all would consider the basics i don't go much beyond that. I don't have a huge collection of guns. I just have what is needed to do the job at hand. I forgot who said it but he hit the nail on the head as far as i'm concerned. "In some way every man is my superior and from them i can learn".

Handloader · Posted: Tue Nov 07, 2006 12:33 pm Post subject: Re: Image vs Reality

Hi Matt: you make two excellent points. Primarily, attitude is the key to progression whether one is learning or instructing. Done properly, we are all either students or teachers, but, importantly, most of us strive to be better. Secondly, too often enthusiasts measure their involvement by quantity of firearms as opposed to proficiency.

A very basic selection of firearms can cover the entire spectrum of hunting and recreational shooting. These I call the "needs". One needs to have a rifle/shotgun to hunt. One needs a handgun for concealed self defense. The other aspect is "wants". Once our needs are filled we may find ourselves wanting a wider selection, but, often feel the need to justify added numbers to the growing collection. At some point, justification is moot and we acquire because we can or simply because we want. Using these guns effectively, well, that's another matter and brings us to another segment of the shooting sports, simply owning.

Many firearms are acquired without thought to useage. It could be historical or a basic emotional response to a particular gun. We have numerous customers that seek period firearms with no intent of ever firing them. They collect limited editions or commermoratives and salt them away, pleased in merely owning them. I suspect they see themselves not as owners at all, rather as guardians of items they hope will continue to future generations, a legacy to continue long after they have died.

So many guns, so little . . . . . .

george20042007 · Posted: Tue Nov 07, 2006 3:40 pm Post subject: Re: Image vs Reality

So, is it Handloader or Dr. Handloader Very Happy

You give plenty of truisms in your oncological (not a word I think) point of view. One thing I've observed is how others react when you invade their area of expertise in the shooting world. They think they are the experts, all knowing...and then you question one thing that obviously strikes a nerve...and it's "how can you even question my knowledge, Patawah". And it's off to the races...let the arguments begin.

It doesn't take much to gain the title of untrustworthy. So, in this thread, what are you seeking?
Keep it coming...

Bushmaster · Posted: Tue Nov 07, 2006 4:27 pm Post subject: Re: Image vs Reality

Handloader...About the Glocks...I have no use for them. They are plastic and ugly (beauty is in the eye of the beholder). I advicate that every one buy them though. You see. I'm running an experiment. I want to see if the plastic guns will last as long as my Colt SAA. It still shoots and it's been around a while and has never seen the inside of a gunsmith's shop. So buy up those Glocks. S & W has already had problems with cracking in high stress areas. As for the rest of your oritation Doctor Handloader. I'm sorry you had a bad day at work the other day......In some ways I can relate. I have never worked in a gun store, thouht I have worked as an auto parts man. I was a journey level machanic between jobs at the time and you can get some real nuts looking for parts sometimes.

You do need to be a little more specific when catigorizing all of us gun wierdos though. You might concider that some of those are people that are afraid that you might think they don't know much about firearms and are trying to hide it behind some bravado...Me? I know MY guns and that's about it. 'course I can expand to other related gun and reloading problems.

Oh...Almost forgot. I do believe that there is such a thing as a "stupid question". Every body duck...Here it comes... Very Happy

Dimitri · Super Member Joined: Nov 25, 2005 Posts: 5946

Quote::

Secondly, too often enthusiasts measure their involvement by quantity of firearms as opposed to proficiency.

I've got one 8mm Mauser rifle, a airpistol and one crossbow right now. Guess I'm not included in that group that judges there knowlage on the size of there collection. Very Happy

Dimitri

Handloader · Posted: Tue Nov 07, 2006 5:52 pm Post subject: Re: Image vs Reality

Brother George: I've read your last post a few times, however, its intent and meaning evade me (I'm a little slow sometimes, sorry.). I am sure there was something germane and, since I value your opinion, I would appreciate it if you would rephrase and repost. Thanks.

Bushmaster: you may be pleased to know that each and every day at work is one of pure joy. Now, since the day I joined this list, I have read many of your posts on lots of subjects. My opinion is that you should work in a gunshop and dispense your nuggets of wisdom for a living. I think you would do a great job and add some flavor to any establishment. If you move to Phoenix, let me know; I'll introduce you to the boss. And, I absolutely agree with you that there are stupid questions. Likewise, stupid answers.