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Im all confusticated!!!!!!
Discussion regarding the reloading of ammunition and tuning of loads for accuracy
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Elvis
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 12:51 am    Post subject: Im all confusticated!!!!!! Reply with quote

Just been delving into my reloading manuals and looking at Hodgdon h4831 which looks to be just the ducks nuts as it gives better velocity than nearly every other powder listed Very Happy so I order myself a lb tin....
now curiosity got the better of me so Im browsing the load data here and someone says that it is the same powder as ar2213sc????
well hang on a minute wtf if its the same powder...how come the data is different???
Ive used ar2213 before with good results and its easy to get over here,the H4831 on the other hand is not listed but Ive ordered some from local sports shop.
What gives here guys?????

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Vince
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 1:08 am    Post subject: Re: Im all confusticated!!!!!! Reply with quote

You got it mate...H4831 is AR22123sc.

Email inbound.

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gelandangan
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 1:52 am    Post subject: Re: Im all confusticated!!!!!! Reply with quote

Mate, all powder manufacturer is worried about getting sued for publishing too high a load.
Most of them are retracting their load figure down to fit the lowest denominator.

You got to do your own load development or forever suffers the consequence of blooompfth..

Hows that for further megaultraconfusticatoring?

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dhc4ever
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 2:13 am    Post subject: Re: Im all confusticated!!!!!! Reply with quote

Elvis,
Take a gander at the ADI reloading site and look up the powder equivalents, AR2213sc and H4831 are side by side, there are no other powders listed in that row.
H4831, made in oz, sold in the USA, bought by kiwi's and 5 middlemen :-)

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Ominivision1
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 6:01 am    Post subject: Re: Im all confusticated!!!!!! Reply with quote

Here is a link to Hodgdons web site where it shows H4831sc and ar2213sc to be the same powder in the msds sheets. H4831 and ar2213 are the same, the sc means "special cut".

www.hodgdon.com/msds.html

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Suzanne
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 6:16 am    Post subject: Re: Im all confusticated!!!!!! Reply with quote

Me thinks you got your "special cut"

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Vince
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 6:40 am    Post subject: Re: Im all confusticated!!!!!! Reply with quote

Suzanne wrote:
Me thinks you got your "special cut"

Confused Confused Confused wtf Shocked Shocked

Do you know something we don't Suz? Laughing Laughing

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Bushmaster
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 7:57 am    Post subject: Re: Im all confusticated!!!!!! Reply with quote

The "SC" stands for "short cut" as in, they cut the original granuals in half for a much denser powder charge to aid in not having a compressed charge.

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Ominivision1
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 8:07 am    Post subject: Re: Im all confusticated!!!!!! Reply with quote

Bushy's right, sc stands for "short cut" not special cut.

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MacD
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 8:35 am    Post subject: Re: Im all confusticated!!!!!! Reply with quote

Guess the lawyers in OZ haven't put the wind up ADI's management yet. The problem is you have to start somewhere. Some people swear by old manuals and others say that modern powder is more potent so don't use old load data. Online references outside of the powder and bullet makers sites are iffy. Since I have yet not been able to find an accurate load within modern load data limits I am happy. Once I start loading for the 35 Rem I will be trying for the best muzzle energy combination of bullet weight and speed as I intend to use it for moose and caribou hunting. Given the tender rim and the possible tendency for split necks that are sometimes seen in this cartridge I expect I will be doing a lot of careful working up. I have some older factory rounds for comparison and some new Hornady ones as a guide. The action and barrel on the 760 are not a concern as they were used for more powerful calbers.

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chambered221
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 6:00 pm    Post subject: Re: Im all confusticated!!!!!! Reply with quote

Elvis wrote:

well hang on a minute wtf if its the same powder...how come the data is different???

Just accept that it is and it'll be less frustrating !!! Bang Head
You know the rules of re-loading.........start low work up.


I've got 5 different re-loading manuals....... all 5 will sometimes give different max when making comparisons.

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Bushmaster
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 6:22 pm    Post subject: Re: Im all confusticated!!!!!! Reply with quote

ByTheWay Elvis...What are you loading...?

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PaulS
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 9:07 pm    Post subject: Re: Im all confusticated!!!!!! Reply with quote

In a long talk with Hodgdon and the Sierra bullet smiths I found that there are only two reasons for the lower charges in the newer manuals.
1. Some guns, like the 357 magnum, have strengths that fall in every catagory from puny to very strong. Smith and Wesson along with a couple of other gun manufacturers have made "marginal" guns in the 357 Mag. Rather than leave the original SAAMI pressure levels at 47000 cup they have petitioned to have the pressures lowered for their guns - and won. The SAAMI pressure limits on the 357 mag have dropped to just 30000 psi and although the original loads are safe in the stronger guns they can cause big problems in the weaker guns. Sierra listed 19.6 grains of H110 / WW296 in their 1985 version of their manual but list a lot lower load in their current manual. That is why I called them. After a couple of long conversations I was assured that the powder had not changed and that my load would still be just as safe in my gun as it was before (I was not loading the maximum but close)

2. The conversion from cup to psi measurements brought with it some surprises. A lot of the old loads were well above the SAAMI maximum pressures but no one ever knew it until they could measure the pressures per split millisecond. The copper crusher gave an average maximum force reading while the peizoelectric method gives much higher definition of the actual curve of pressure over time.
Some loads would spike very high for just an instant while others were moderate for longer periods but they both gave the same pressure measurements with copper crushers. When SAAMI started examining barrels that had been used for years with the old loads they found that the chambers were full of micro-fractures that would ultimately lead to catastrophic failures of the gun. On those loads they reduced the charges of powder or did away with those that were known to be ill-suited for the cartridge as we understand it now.

The manufacturer's manuals are just doing what they have to in order to keep the data at or below SAAMI standard pressures. A few of the old load data have been replaced with hotter loads but some have been decreased. I like using the newer powders so in most cases I have to use the newer information but for my 357 I can use the older data without a problem. I have never had a sticky case or short life of a cartridge so I will keep the very accurate load that I developed in my gun.

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Elvis
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 9:46 pm    Post subject: Re: Im all confusticated!!!!!! Reply with quote

Bushmaster wrote:
ByTheWay Elvis...What are you loading...?
.270winchester. my Nick Harvey manual has loads for this powder. the funny/strange thing is in the text he mentions what a great load with the 170grn speer powered by this powder is but then doesnt list it in the data section Embarassed
when I looked realy carefully the loads that used the same weight of powder had different velocities Embarassed so it seems that at some time they were different. I have just got off the phone to my supplier and she will have me a 1lb tin after easter $60NZ which is about $8 cheaper than elsewhere for any powder.
I had a good run with AR 2213 in this rifle but changed to AR2206h because it loads every calibre I have.
now I want some good powder for the old girl (just because) and hopefully it will restore my faith in her Very Happy I do like the sound of a 170grn speer doing 2800fps Shocked might boot a bit but I dont feel recoil when on an animal. paper is a different story Embarassed .

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Ominivision1
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 10:10 pm    Post subject: Re: Im all confusticated!!!!!! Reply with quote

Elvis, you sure it's 170gr? I was over at speers website and the biggest is 150gr for the 270 winchester.

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