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Anyone have a good kneck turning process?
Discussion regarding the reloading of ammunition and tuning of loads for accuracy
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SingleShotLover
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 17, 2008 5:49 am    Post subject: Re: Anyone have a good kneck turning process? Reply with quote

Like many of the manual case trimmers offered today, my Lyman Universal Trimmer also offers a conversion kit for using an electric drill to turn the shaft. After trying this for a while, I soon decided there had to be a better way. The drill only created additional confusion and clutter on the bench and was extremely awkward in use. I attempted to attach a variety of small motors to the shaft...with varying degrees of success. Many worked to an extent but still were difficult to use smoothly and with a minimum of effort. Finally a better solution presented itself.

DeWalt and Jacobs Multi-Craft offer flexi-shafts designed for common electric drills. These can be obtained at most hardware stores including Menards, Lowes and Home Depot. They are approximately 40" in length with a 1/4" shaft on the drill end and a standard 3/8" chuck and a convenient handle on the other. In use, the 1/4" shaft is inserted in an appropriate drill and the chuck attached to the cutter shank. This allows the drill itself to remain hanging on the wall or otherwise out of the way and the chuck-end handle gives a person a much better handhold for manipulating the cutter.

My setup consists of the above shaft and a good variable speed electric drill (re-chargeable drills lose the charges far too soon for most jobs). The drill is suspended from a bracket on the wall and a simple trigger adjustment locks the drill speeds for various cutting jobs. The case trimmer is mounted to a 2" X 8" about 18" long for stability while still remaining portable.

I usually adjust the trigger to a slow, even speed for case trimming and quite a bit faster for neck turning. Bear in mind that too fast of a speed setting when trimming case lengths will cause “chatter” and gouges in the brass. One of the very real benefits I have found is being able to use higher speeds for the neck-turning process. Even though most trimmers offer fine-thread "feed rate adjustment", even the fine threads on these will many times leave areas of the case neck untrimmed and looking more like threading as a result of too rapid feeding. By adjusting the drill to moderately high speeds, forgetting about the feeding adjustment and advancing the cutter shaft slowly by hand, the carbide cutter has a chance to over-lap each cut, making super smooth turning without ridges. Using this step right after trimming cases also eliminates the need for chamfering the outside of case necks...the turning takes care of any burrs. You do, however, still need to chamfer the inside of case mouths.

As for neck thickness; I generally only turn enough to remove any obviously high spots on cases for field use. After all, if there is a particularly thick section of the neck on a case, that extra thickness probably runs the entire length of the case and probably isn't doing you much good either.

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jbird22cal
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 18, 2008 9:32 am    Post subject: Re: Anyone have a good kneck turning process? Reply with quote

Okay,

I got around to some playing around with my dies. Turns out I haven't actually played with the .300 win mag dies. Silly me. I was thinking of my 7mm dies. any ways i blame it on lack of sleep.

I took a fired case and stuck it back into the gun. and I found it didn't seem to touch anything around the case shoulder or neck. I Dunno why not, and am not to particular as to why not at the moment as I am happy with it going bang. I figure it must be OK. closer inspection of multiple fired brass should give me an idea, or at least I hope.

I am using a full length die, and I set it to leave a small anti-doughnut and am able to chamber each of the re sized cases. So My head space neck size doesn't seem to be an issue.

I started sizing my new cases with the dies still set to leave the ant-doughnut., which didn't seem to leave that big of a problem behind.

I drew a concern though. I was thinking that if I don't size all of the neck and down to the shoulder, I suppose I could be causing a low spot in the neck wall when I turn the whole neck. I only have a Dial caliper at the moment at I haven't been able to borrow a ball tube mic. so I'm not sure.

I stopped at this point on a once fired for the purpose of the picture, so I'll try to cut it back the rest of the way as to allow me to check for this, unless you all have a thought.

These once fired cases as well as the new cases are Winchester ww super head stamped. the once fired walls range in wall thickness up to .003" in my measurements any way and the new cases are in the range of .001-.002" I unfortunately am not able to turn the necks all the way around with out going all the way down to .012" so my guess is that I probably don't need to turn them. This is 5 PCs out of 50 new pieces.

Thanks for everyone's help so far.



web dsc00025.jpg
 Description:
I used a Sharpie and turned my fies down until I got to this point. This chambered just fine in my rifle.
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web dsc00028.jpg
 Description:
I sized, and trimmed this case down to the anti-doughnut. I plan on trimming it the rest of the way back and measuring the neck walls to prove to myself that I am not weakening the case to much.
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web dsc00030.jpg
 Description:
This is a fired case I marked the shoulder and neck with a marker hoping ti get a mark identifying where any shoulder or neck contact was coming from. It didn'y work, I feel a chamber casting party coming up soon.
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jbird22cal
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 18, 2008 10:19 am    Post subject: Re: Anyone have a good kneck turning process? Reply with quote

This is a turned new case. My cutter did not seem to have the provisions to cut on the shoulder like the forstner with out making steps. So I guess I'll just have to try it this way.



web dsc00022.jpg
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What I am comfortable with so far.
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_________________
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woods
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 18, 2008 9:08 pm    Post subject: Re: Anyone have a good kneck turning process? Reply with quote

Hey jbird

I would not try to turn the necks down to the "anti-donut" neck area and then stop like in your 2nd picture. That would make part of your neck thinner than the other and might lead to problems. I would turn the necks all the way to the shoulder like in your last post. After firing then you can make an "anti-donut" neck. You only need to turn once.

Question: the case in the 3rd picture looks like the neck is all the same outside diameter and from your description it sounds like you marked it and then fired it. Marking the neck or body and looking for contact comes during the chambering phase not with firing. You would be unable to tell where the contact was after firing the case.

The turned case in your last post looks just fine and it does not matter if you have a lot of chamber neck clearance, you will be aiding your accuracy by turning anyway. It will help make your bullet release more consistant and subsequent sizing will have less runout. Also, it may not be necessary to turn into the shoulder for do-nut mitigation if you use the "anti-donut" method. Turning into the shoulder always gives me the heebie-jeebies anyway cause I wonder if I am making the brass too thin in that shoulder cut.

Best process: Turn new brass (you might have to expand the neck with a Lee Collet or some kind of expander mandrel to get the turning mandrel in), neck size only with an "anti-donut" and when the case gets hard to chamber, push the shoulder back .001" for Partial Full Length Resizing.

But I do like your exploratory ideas and innovative thinking. Keep it up.

As far as the once fired not touching anything in the chamber, you have to keep in mind the evolution of the case during subsequent firings. New cases have more springback and it take a few firings to expand fully and contact the chamber for a crush fit. For instance, using a Hornady Headspace Gauge



which measures the case on the datum point



I have taken the following measurements on my 300 win mag

new cases - 2.2530"
once fired - 2.2700" (neck size only)
twice fired - 2.2720" (neck size only)
3 times fired - 2.2725" (slight crush fit, neck size only)
4 times fired - 2.2730" (crush fit, neck size then body size pushing the shoulder back to 2.2725")

So your chamber does not touch the case until 3 or 4 firings. Your results might vary because of your particular chamber and how hot your load is, but this sequence is pretty standard in almost all my guns (not WSM's though).

To me if you turn the new case necks and neck size with an "anti-donut" then PFLR with an "anti-donut" then you are utilizing your equipment in the best way and need to chase other methods like bullet weight sorting, seating depths, powder charge, different primers, etc. to further enhance accuracy.

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Last edited by woods on Mon Aug 04, 2008 8:47 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Pumpkinslinger
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 18, 2008 9:47 pm    Post subject: Re: Anyone have a good kneck turning process? Reply with quote

Fellers, this thread contains good information and excellent pictures. Thanks for your efforts!

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SingleShotLover
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 19, 2008 5:02 am    Post subject: Re: Anyone have a good kneck turning process? Reply with quote

One more quick note: Don't get carried away and turn the necks too thin. Remember that you have to have enough neck tension to hold the bullet firmly without custom tight-necked sizing. A friend once was very proud of his "perfectly" turned necks on his .243 Winchester cases...until trying to unload the chamber after two shots left a bullet stuck in the throat and lands. There simply wasn't enough neck-tension to hold the bullet in place through the first two firings, and chambering the third one had jammed it (lightly, but enough to pull it from the case) in the lands.

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Handloader
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 19, 2008 6:25 am    Post subject: Re: Anyone have a good kneck turning process? Reply with quote

I use neck turning items from Sinclair International. They have a great selection and although more expensive than some the results are what counts. Prior to that I used the Forrester which did reasonably good but lacked the control of the Sinclair.

Neck turning is laborious and I echo the previous post from SingleShotLover about turning too much of the neck. I remove only what is needed to make the neck concentric. Sinclair also offers a number of concentricity gauges. Neck turning is not needed in the majority of hunting applications, although, for prairie dogs at distance, the slight accuracy advantage makes me feel better. Now, if I could only learn to dope the wind a bit better.
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chambered221
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 19, 2008 6:42 am    Post subject: Re: Anyone have a good kneck turning process? Reply with quote

Have been watching this thread closely, very good and on par with evrything I've read and researched thus far !!!!!!!

I've been planning a rebarrel job for about a year now !!!!!! (just can't make my mind up as to what I want )

The end result will be some type of long range varmit/target rig

The tight neck option has been a real sticking point !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Have recently read about some really good results with no-turn necks in the 6BR and 6.5x47 Lapua

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jbird22cal
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 19, 2008 9:42 am    Post subject: Re: Anyone have a good kneck turning process? Reply with quote

Quote::

Question: the case in the 3rd picture looks like the neck is all the same outside diameter and from your description it sounds like you marked it and then fired it. Marking the neck or body and looking for contact comes during the chambering phase not with firing. You would be unable to tell where the contact was after firing the case.

The case in the third picture was fired last Oct. or Nov. and then marked yesterday, I simply marked the case neck for checking where the case contacted the chamber. This lack of contact seen, is what I believe, to be similar to your observations. I will buy the set for my hornady/stoney point comparator for checking head space, up till now, I have not needed it, you just sold it.

I turned 3 once fired cases that have been sized with the "anti-donut" Laughing method yesterday an I have to say it cut off a lot more metal. I am now trying to bring myself to taking one of these cases to my belt sander or some other method of measuring the case neck wall before using them.

For my new cases, that came packed ever so conveniently in a bag and were bent all to heck, I just ran them over my hornady expander and touched them to my neck sizing portion of my die. This seemed to have no major o.d. effect and allowed for me to get an accurate reading. This is the method for which I turned ten cases like the last one pictured. I will trim them and all to the same length (to the lowest of all of them within the min max case length. as to allow for the most neck support on the bullet), I will weigh and sort the cases to similar weight and record for future reference. I am planning on weighing the bullets as well. I will be starting with Hornaday 165gr sp interlocks and H4895. These may not end up being the best for this load but fist of all I have them on hand, second I have been using Hornady bullets exclusively and found them to be concentric co pared to my .224 Barnes Tripple X's. I chose h4895 for it's versatility and having already experimented with the reduced loads. Which my be needed in this endeavor for proofing at first.

I plan on using a .025 from rifling bullet seat if I can still manage OAL for my magazine. (this is a hunting gun) I have the stoneypoint/hornady tool and case for that as well.

I am going to abandon neck turning once fired cases for any caliber at this time until I get a better handle on all of this. I have large assortments now of .223 and .22-250 new lots. Other calibers are just a mouse click away.
I will reserve what is left of my few nickel plated cases (which are a bugger to turn any way) for reduced loads in my 300. (a less painful way of getting practice time with this rifle.)

This procedure is for my smaller lots of ammo any way, I can't imagine turning some 500 cases in a timely fashion that are going to be fired in highly repetitive fashion. hee hee.

Wow this has been great. Thank you for all of your advice, I have stored a mental nugget of every ones advice. thanks. Thanks Woods for the wonderful advice.

I am going to hop over to midway to price out the head space gages (along with the rim-fire gage things too),the RCBS concentricy gage and possibly the neck sizing die you mentioned. I have avoided neck sizing dies in the past as for fear of getting a crush fit. Though may it may be better for accuracy, I foresaw it to be a potential problem when trying to acquire a follow up shot on a whitetail. This problem may be compounded if the chamber is dirty. I don't generally clean my guns during season unless the is large amounts of moisture (snow clogged bbl. fro corn fields) or I have noticed a drop in accuracy over a fired string.

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woods
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 19, 2008 6:19 pm    Post subject: Re: Anyone have a good kneck turning process? Reply with quote

jbird22cal wrote:

I have avoided neck sizing dies in the past as for fear of getting a crush fit. Though may it may be better for accuracy, I foresaw it to be a potential problem when trying to acquire a follow up shot on a whitetail. This problem may be compounded if the chamber is dirty. I don't generally clean my guns during season unless the is large amounts of moisture (snow clogged bbl. fro corn fields) or I have noticed a drop in accuracy over a fired string.

Always try your loads in your gun. I don't want a crush fit either but don't mind a very slight crush fit. It is important to resize your brass as little as possible, especially a win mag because they are highly susceptible to case head separations and resizing as little as possible will help increase case life



The reason is because of the excessive amount of space between a new case shoulder and the chamber shoulder in most belted magnums. I guess since the cases are supposed to headspace on the belt the brass manufacturers don't care about making brass closer to the chamber dimensions. When the firing pin hits the case it slams the case forward to contact at the shoulder, the case body expands and grips the chamber and the brass is then forced to expand back to the bolt face. The brass thins at the pressure ring.

If you get the Hornady Headspace Gauge you will be able to monitor this for your guns and make adjustments if needed like loading into the lands to retard the case moving forward.

I think I'm rambling and this is another subject.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 20, 2008 4:25 pm    Post subject: Re: Anyone have a good kneck turning process? Reply with quote

Case life was why I was taught to headspace of the shoulder rather than the rim. The theory is to get more than five loadings out of these belted cases. My usual way of setting dies failed in this case (the marker on the shoulder idea) and with the new added Anti-donut method I will have to rethink it. I have the Hornady Head space gauge on order as well as the case master from RCBS.

I am thinking I may end up borrowing your washer idea eventually. My Goal, and guesstimate of what you seem to be up to is. Size using the ADM (anti-donut method) while monitoring the shoulder head space, Continue this procedure until it is necessary to start bumping the shoulder back .001. Once this is in place Figure out what way to measure the already proved distance of the ADM on the case and Fabricate/acquire a spacer (washer in this size.) or use said spacer from here on out proving the adm sizing based on that spacer size.

From there on the dies will be turned down and locked in the fashion to bump the shoulder back .001 and also size the neck fully. (This will need to be assessed as it may allow for donut interference.) From there on any case needing to be Full length resized, new or fired, will have a consistent amount (within reasonable limits) of contact with the dies. Now with the dies set in this fashion all one would need to do is add the above mentioned spacer to perform the ADM.

Crimeny I hope I'm making sense.

I just have to figuer out a starting point for the spacer size. A little research will probably give me some idea. Perhaps if I re-read the forster idea or just pic a random washer and see how those cases work.

Woo hoo!

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"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity." - Sigmund Freud

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 20, 2008 4:48 pm    Post subject: Re: Anyone have a good kneck turning process? Reply with quote

How about using a feeler gauge to set up your dies? Raise the ram all the way. Put the appropriate feeler gauge on top of the shell holder then screw the die down until it contacts the gauge. Then lock the die down there.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 20, 2008 6:38 pm    Post subject: Re: Anyone have a good kneck turning process? Reply with quote

Been following this thread, although it isn't really pertinent to me as I don't need to worry about turning necks.

Remembered a thread we had a little while ago that may be of assistance:

Belted Magnum Collet Resizing Die

Might just help with some of the problems you are facing.

Cheers, Vince

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woods
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 20, 2008 7:23 pm    Post subject: Re: Anyone have a good kneck turning process? Reply with quote

jbird22cal wrote:

I am thinking I may end up borrowing your washer idea eventually. My Goal, and guesstimate of what you seem to be up to is. Size using the ADM (anti-donut method) while monitoring the shoulder head space, Continue this procedure until it is necessary to start bumping the shoulder back .001. Once this is in place Figure out what way to measure the already proved distance of the ADM on the case and Fabricate/acquire a spacer (washer in this size.) or use said spacer from here on out proving the adm sizing based on that spacer size.

From there on the dies will be turned down and locked in the fashion to bump the shoulder back .001 and also size the neck fully. (This will need to be assessed as it may allow for donut interference.) From there on any case needing to be Full length resized, new or fired, will have a consistent amount (within reasonable limits) of contact with the dies. Now with the dies set in this fashion all one would need to do is add the above mentioned spacer to perform the ADM.


Woo hoo!

Hey jbird

The link that is missing in your process is that this only works with a Lee Collet Neck Sizer and a Redding Body Die once you reach the point of pushing the shoulder back, which is what I use almost exclusively. If you are using a full length die with an expander ball then everything changes. There is no way to put a washer around a full length die and have it push the shoulder back. If you set it deep enough to push the shoulder back then it will size all the neck.

When I do it I use the washer with the Lee Collet and then push the shoulder back with the Redding Body Die, which does not touch any part of the neck. Without those 2 dies then the ADM Very Happy is non-applicable. Sorry, this never occurred to me since I haven't used a FL die with an expander in a long time and probably never will again.

With the FL die you are stuck with neck sizing only if you want to leave the ADM and you don't need the washer, just back the die up 3/4 turn and it will leave the same thing as a washer with the Lee Collet.

Hey Lee Collets and Redding Body Dies can be bought for about the same price as one quality FL die, so when you get the chance make the switch.

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jbird22cal
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Joined: Dec 13, 2006
Posts: 67
Location: Baraboo, WI

PostPosted: Wed Jun 25, 2008 5:52 am    Post subject: Re: Anyone have a good kneck turning process? Reply with quote

Okay, I see your point. I was considering using a spacer instead of using feeler gages. I was planning on setting my full length sizer to the point where the shoulder is pushed back .001. So that when I use the ADM I can just add the spacer to the process for repeatability of the process. I use the hornady LNL system and am not fond of constantly changing the die settings.

My process would have been staring with new cases:

1. Full length resize at the .001 shoulder set back in essence leaving that shoulder and for the most part only be messing around with the neck.

2. Turn necks, Trim length, Record Headspace.

3. Sort by weight, neck wall, length.

4. Load

5. Fire

6. Record Headspace change and note chamber fit.

7. Re-size adding the spacer between the LnL bushing and the lock ring for the ADM

7. Load

8. Fire

etc, monitoring the headspace, inspection for brass failure goes in there along with cleaning and all of that. This is just a mental check list at the moment. I will have to adapt for what I will run into such as in the event I find I need to full length resize and end up removing the ADM ring. I may need to purchase a reamer. but then again I may have case failure at that point. Time and experience will tell. I may end up purchasing the said dies and will go through the other topic mentioned.

With all this information I now can start Loading some up and monitoring this process. Thanks for everyone's help in this effort. Keep your powder dry.

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" I am not trying to be better than you... I'm not even trying to be Holier than you... I'm trying to be better and Holier than I was yesterday!" - jbird22cal
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