HuntingNut
HuntingNut
   Login or Register
HomeCommunity ForumsPhoto AlbumsRegister
     
 

User Info

Welcome Anonymous


Membership:
Latest: hdjksjk
New Today: 0
New Yesterday: 0
Overall: 12574

People Online:
Members: 0
Visitors: 250
BOT: 2
Total: 252
Who Is Where:
 Visitors:
01: Forums
02: Forums
03: Your Account
04: Your Account
05: Forums
06: Your Account
07: Your Account
08: Forums
09: Forums
10: Forums
11: Forums
12: Forums
13: Forums
14: Your Account
15: Forums
16: Forums
17: Home
18: Forums
19: Photo Albums
20: Your Account
21: Forums
22: Photo Albums
23: Your Account
24: Your Account
25: Forums
26: Forums
27: Forums
28: Forums
29: Forums
30: Forums
31: Forums
32: Forums
33: Your Account
34: Photo Albums
35: Your Account
36: Forums
37: Forums
38: Home
39: Forums
40: Forums
41: Forums
42: Forums
43: Forums
44: Forums
45: Forums
46: Forums
47: Forums
48: Forums
49: Forums
50: Forums
51: Forums
52: Forums
53: Forums
54: Forums
55: Home
56: Forums
57: Your Account
58: Forums
59: Forums
60: Forums
61: Forums
62: Forums
63: Forums
64: Your Account
65: Your Account
66: Home
67: Forums
68: Forums
69: Forums
70: Forums
71: Forums
72: Forums
73: Forums
74: Forums
75: Forums
76: Your Account
77: Forums
78: Forums
79: Forums
80: Forums
81: Forums
82: Forums
83: Forums
84: Forums
85: Forums
86: Your Account
87: Forums
88: Forums
89: Forums
90: Photo Albums
91: Forums
92: Forums
93: Your Account
94: Forums
95: Forums
96: Forums
97: Forums
98: Your Account
99: Your Account
100: Forums
101: Forums
102: Your Account
103: Forums
104: Forums
105: Forums
106: Your Account
107: Forums
108: Forums
109: Forums
110: News
111: Forums
112: Photo Albums
113: Forums
114: Forums
115: Forums
116: Forums
117: Your Account
118: Forums
119: Your Account
120: Forums
121: Home
122: Photo Albums
123: Forums
124: Forums
125: Forums
126: Your Account
127: Forums
128: Forums
129: Forums
130: Photo Albums
131: Forums
132: Forums
133: Home
134: Forums
135: Home
136: Forums
137: Forums
138: Your Account
139: Forums
140: Forums
141: Your Account
142: Forums
143: Forums
144: Forums
145: Photo Albums
146: Forums
147: Forums
148: Your Account
149: Forums
150: Photo Albums
151: Forums
152: Forums
153: Forums
154: Photo Albums
155: Forums
156: Photo Albums
157: Home
158: Your Account
159: Forums
160: Forums
161: Forums
162: Forums
163: Your Account
164: Photo Albums
165: Your Account
166: Photo Albums
167: Your Account
168: Forums
169: Your Account
170: Forums
171: Forums
172: Forums
173: Home
174: Forums
175: Forums
176: Forums
177: Forums
178: Forums
179: Photo Albums
180: Your Account
181: Your Account
182: Your Account
183: Forums
184: Forums
185: Your Account
186: Forums
187: Forums
188: Forums
189: Forums
190: Forums
191: Forums
192: Forums
193: Forums
194: Forums
195: Forums
196: Forums
197: Forums
198: Photo Albums
199: Forums
200: Forums
201: Forums
202: Forums
203: Forums
204: Forums
205: Forums
206: Forums
207: Forums
208: Your Account
209: Home
210: Forums
211: Your Account
212: Forums
213: Forums
214: Forums
215: Photo Albums
216: Photo Albums
217: Forums
218: Photo Albums
219: Forums
220: Forums
221: Forums
222: Your Account
223: Forums
224: Your Account
225: Your Account
226: Forums
227: Forums
228: Forums
229: Forums
230: Your Account
231: Forums
232: Forums
233: Forums
234: Forums
235: Your Account
236: Home
237: Photo Albums
238: Forums
239: Home
240: Forums
241: Forums
242: Forums
243: Photo Albums
244: Forums
245: Photo Albums
246: Forums
247: Your Account
248: Forums
249: Your Account
250: Forums
  BOT:
01: Forums
02: Forums

Staff Online:

No staff members are online!
 

Coppermine Stats
Photo Albums
 Albums: 305
 Pictures: 2356
  · Views: 344555
  · Votes: 1306
  · Comments: 85
 

Support our Advertisers

Flawed or not, will this work?
Discussion regarding the reloading of ammunition and tuning of loads for accuracy
Go to page 1, 2  Next
Post new topic   Reply to topic   Printer Friendly Page    Forum Index » Reloading Ammunition

View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
BigBlack
Rookie Member
Rookie Member


Joined: Mar 07, 2008
Posts: 13
Location: Lyons, GA

PostPosted: Wed Oct 29, 2008 1:49 pm    Post subject: Flawed or not, will this work? Reply with quote

Okay I want accuracy plus speed. I know faster does not always equate to better accuracy but I want a blend of both. Here is my game plan on developing some future hand loads. My goal is to achieve the best accuracy/speed combo without wasting a lot of components and since I have started reloading various calibers I am working up a collection of partial powder containers.

Step 1: Load up one cartridge of each weight stepping up in .5 grain increments from min to max. Shoot each cartridge over the chronograph going from lightest charged to heaviest. Watching for pressure signs and monitoring speed. This step is basically to test the upper end of the charge scale and see if it is safe in my rifle and also to see the approximate fps gain for each half grain increment and see if the speed increase flattens at a given point.

Step 2: Once complete with step one load up 3 cartridges each of the top 5 loads from above. Now shoot these for groups at 100 still using my chronograph. If one load shows promise then work around it in smaller increments and more shots per group (maybe 5). If not try a different powder that I have on hand known to work in the cartridge I am loading and repeat from step 1.

Again my goal is to find a good accurate load with upper end velocity. I know sometimes slower is more accurate in certain combinations, but I feel with the right combination I should be able to get both or at least a good balance.

Thinking out loud but thought this would be good food for the brain!

_________________
Paul Graham
Clean-um, Prep-um, Pack-um, Load-um, Bang-um
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website
Bushmaster
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: Jun 12, 2005
Posts: 10480
Location: Ava, Missouri

PostPosted: Wed Oct 29, 2008 2:05 pm    Post subject: Re: Flawed or not, will this work? Reply with quote

To get anywhere near some idea of fps you need to send at least three of the same load over the chronograph to get an average. More then three is better, but....This will also tell you if it is an accurate load or not. Providing you ar shooting at a target too.

Out of the above groups you pick the best one and tinker with it to see if it can be impoved. Then you change bullet or maybe powder or maybe case...And do it all over again...

_________________
I have one nerve left and yer standin' on it...

DEMOCRACY Two wolves and one sheep voting on what to have for lunch...
LIBERTY A well armed sheep contesting the outcome of the vote...


Last edited by Bushmaster on Wed Oct 29, 2008 2:07 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile
Dawgdad
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: Feb 08, 2006
Posts: 1055
Location: On the Prairie

PostPosted: Wed Oct 29, 2008 2:07 pm    Post subject: Re: Flawed or not, will this work? Reply with quote

Do not try to re-invent the wheel. Search this sight for information on Audettes ladder and Dan Newberry's optimal charge weight methods for determining a good load.Once you optimize the powder charge tweak the accuracy by making adjustments to the bullet jump distance. Most of my rifles shoot best .020 -.010 off the lands and I have to use a Comparator/ogive length gauge to set that not cartridge OAL to the tip of the bullet.

_________________
Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms should be a convenience store, not a government agency...
Back to top
View user's profile Photo Gallery
Pumpkinslinger
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: Sep 22, 2007
Posts: 4460
Location: NC foothills

PostPosted: Wed Oct 29, 2008 4:22 pm    Post subject: Re: Flawed or not, will this work? Reply with quote

BigBlack, take a look at this site >> www.the-long-family.com/

IMO the Optimal Charge Weight seems the way to go for load development. (I wonder if that will start a ruckus...)

_________________
Mike

"I ain't no better than anyone else, and there ain't no one better than me!" Ma Kettle

Back to top
View user's profile AIM Address Yahoo Messenger Photo Gallery
Grant
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: Aug 28, 2006
Posts: 319
Location: Grande Prairie, Alberta

PostPosted: Wed Oct 29, 2008 9:11 pm    Post subject: Re: Flawed or not, will this work? Reply with quote

I for one don't care about the bullet speed per say. I do like the load to be on the higher end of the FPS for bullet weight and powder, but if the accuracy load is closer to the starting load speed, that's okay by me.

I only really use two powders, IMR4064 and IMR4831. In my 30/30 and my 250/3000 I use the IMR4064 and in everything else the IMR4831. So, I don't try and confuse the equation by adding in multiple possible elements. I pick the bullet weight I want to use for the desired effect. I'm a big bullet fan and usually use the heaviest or very close to the heaviest bullet for a particular caliber. And then I load up 3 rounds starting at or just above the starting load listed and go up in 1/2 grain increments. When I find the most accurate load, I may tweak it a little, but I stick with it from there.

_________________
If God wanted us to be vegetarians, he would have made broccoli more fun to shoot!

If guns kill people, does that mean I can blame misspelled words on my pencil?
Back to top
View user's profile
tikkat3
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: Jul 30, 2006
Posts: 709

PostPosted: Wed Oct 29, 2008 10:12 pm    Post subject: Re: Flawed or not, will this work? Reply with quote

BigBlack Quote

"My goal is to achieve the best accuracy/speed combo without wasting a lot of components"

Re subject 'Flawed or not'
Answer - Flawed.
I'm with Pumpinslinger go OCW and you will find the fastest most accurate load, with minimul use of components.
Back to top
View user's profile
Vince
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: May 25, 2005
Posts: 13468
Location: Brisbane AUSTRALIA

PostPosted: Wed Oct 29, 2008 10:50 pm    Post subject: Re: Flawed or not, will this work? Reply with quote

Gidday Big Black. Mate, the guys have said it all.

Being a reformed speed nut...that don't sound good...being a reformed high FPS nut Laughing I learned a long time ago that speed and accuracy do not always go hand in hand. OK, sometimes they do...but its a rare occurrence.

Have a read of the OCW Method,it works, consider the Audette's Ladder...it didn't really work for me...then put in a little range time. As Bushy said...check speed and accuracy at the same time...save on components mate. Once you have decided on a load then by all means tinker with it. I have found, with Varget (AR2208), that accuracy peaks at about .5 gr below maximum. You mention that you are going to jump up in 1/2 grain increments...I'd use .3 of a grain...you might be surprised where the accuracy peaks and at .5 gr increments you will most likely jump right over it.

Cheers, Vince

_________________
Cheers, Vince Cheers

Illegitimi non carborundum
(Never let the bastards grind you down)

Live simply. Love generously. Care deeply. Speak kindly. Leave the rest to God.

"Nulla Si Fa Senza Volonta."
(Without Commitment, Nothing Gets Done)
Back to top
View user's profile AIM Address MSN Messenger Yahoo Messenger Photo Gallery
Handloader
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: Aug 22, 2005
Posts: 1032
Location: Phoenix, Arizona

PostPosted: Wed Oct 29, 2008 11:36 pm    Post subject: Re: Flawed or not, will this work? Reply with quote

Big Black, give us some added information regarding the cartridge, the rifle, etc. What bullet weight is being tested and what is the velocity goal?
Back to top
View user's profile
SingleShotLover
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: Dec 26, 2007
Posts: 969
Location: Illinois

PostPosted: Thu Oct 30, 2008 4:49 am    Post subject: Re: Flawed or not, will this work? Reply with quote

Vince makes a valid point about not using the .5 grain increase on a wholesale basis. Some powders develop pressure faster and in some calibers (notably the various .17s) the difference between enough and way too much can be as little as .2 of a grain.

_________________
If you can't hit it with one, you probably can't with two either!

The biggest problem with a closed mind is that it never seems to come with a closed mouth.

SSL
Back to top
View user's profile Photo Gallery
Handloader
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: Aug 22, 2005
Posts: 1032
Location: Phoenix, Arizona

PostPosted: Thu Oct 30, 2008 9:09 am    Post subject: Re: Flawed or not, will this work? Reply with quote

The issue with the original post is that much of the wording leaves too much to interpretation as far setting up Big Black's goals. Certainly accuracy and velocity can, and often do, go together. Sometimes not. Some cartridges run better at higher pressures. Some don't. Empirically, if we know the cartridge and we can specify the velocity and accuracy goals, then such essential and basic information allows us to assist him in the process or redirect the efforts as needed.
Back to top
View user's profile
BigBlack
Rookie Member
Rookie Member


Joined: Mar 07, 2008
Posts: 13
Location: Lyons, GA

PostPosted: Thu Oct 30, 2008 6:22 pm    Post subject: Re: Flawed or not, will this work? Reply with quote

No paticular rifle in mind with my above statement. I was merely thinking out loud and looking for opinions and thoughts on something that was mulling around between my ears.

I am however working on my .243 using 100gr Game Kings right now.

_________________
Paul Graham
Clean-um, Prep-um, Pack-um, Load-um, Bang-um
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website
Grumulkin
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: Apr 16, 2007
Posts: 365
Location: Central Ohio

PostPosted: Fri Oct 31, 2008 4:40 am    Post subject: Re: Flawed or not, will this work? Reply with quote

Vince wrote:
You mention that you are going to jump up in 1/2 grain increments...I'd use .3 of a grain...you might be surprised where the accuracy peaks and at .5 gr increments you will most likely jump right over it.

How much of an increment you should use depends on case size. For initial load workup in cartridges the size of the 308 Winchester, I use 1 grain increments until approaching a maximum load at which time the increments go down to 0.5 grains. For a 223 Remington, I would use 0.5 gr. increments. For a 25 ACP the increments would be even smaller. Once I find a promising load, I would perhaps try some cartridges with powder charges a little above and below that load.

If a particular powder in a particular cartridge is so, shall I say picky, that a tiny increment in powder charge makes a big difference in accuracy, then if you work up your load on a 75 degree F day, your accuracy will probably be pretty poor if you shoot that load on a 32 degree F day or a 110 degree F day.

In my opinion, shooting one cartridge of a particular load for velocity is pretty worthless. You need to check a minimum of 3 cartridges for any meaningful information.
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website
Vince
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: May 25, 2005
Posts: 13468
Location: Brisbane AUSTRALIA

PostPosted: Fri Oct 31, 2008 6:51 am    Post subject: Re: Flawed or not, will this work? Reply with quote

Gidday Grumpykin...what you say make good sense mate. By all means start your load development using "bold adjustments" that stay within the safety range. However, why not make use of finer/smaller incremental changes right from the get go...won't necessarily save time or components, but it will get you onto that sweet load a little quicker...which is when the real fun part of handloading starts...the fine tuning of a load.

Most powders these days are not temperature sensitive. I use AR2208 (Varget) which was designed for military use. A powder that displays temperature sensitivity is not acceptable in that scenario.

Mate...you are totally correct when you say firing one round for velocity is worthless. Personally, I like to fire five rounds so that I get a better average and also a more accurate representation of the Standard Deviation. This also allows for that one round that we all know is thrown in by Murphy (the miserable bastard Mad ) just to muck us about.

Cheers, Vince

_________________
Cheers, Vince Cheers

Illegitimi non carborundum
(Never let the bastards grind you down)

Live simply. Love generously. Care deeply. Speak kindly. Leave the rest to God.

"Nulla Si Fa Senza Volonta."
(Without Commitment, Nothing Gets Done)
Back to top
View user's profile AIM Address MSN Messenger Yahoo Messenger Photo Gallery
Grumulkin
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: Apr 16, 2007
Posts: 365
Location: Central Ohio

PostPosted: Sat Nov 01, 2008 12:06 am    Post subject: Re: Flawed or not, will this work? Reply with quote

I guess my situation is somewhat unique. I can walk out about 100 feet in my back yard to my shooting range. I can make "bold" adjustments and be down at my reloading bench in a couple of minutes to make fine adjustments if I like. If I had to drive half an hour to a shooting range, it would probably be worth my while to load up cartridges in smaller load increments.
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website
Vince
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: May 25, 2005
Posts: 13468
Location: Brisbane AUSTRALIA

PostPosted: Sat Nov 01, 2008 12:10 am    Post subject: Re: Flawed or not, will this work? Reply with quote

Ya lucky bugger Grumps....wish I had that sort of facility on hand.

Cheers, Vince

_________________
Cheers, Vince Cheers

Illegitimi non carborundum
(Never let the bastards grind you down)

Live simply. Love generously. Care deeply. Speak kindly. Leave the rest to God.

"Nulla Si Fa Senza Volonta."
(Without Commitment, Nothing Gets Done)
Back to top
View user's profile AIM Address MSN Messenger Yahoo Messenger Photo Gallery
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic   Printer Friendly Page    Forum Index » Reloading Ammunition
Page 1 of 2
All times are GMT - 7 Hours
Go to page 1, 2  Next



Jump to:  


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum


Advertisements
 


Valid CSS! Valid HTML 4.01!
Click to check if this page is realy HTML 4.01 compliant for speed :)

All logos and trademarks in this site are property of HuntingNut.com.
The comments are property of their posters, all the rest © 2011 by HuntingNut.com
Interactive software released under GNU GPL, Code Credits, Privacy Policy

.: Upgraded to DragonFly 9.2 by Dizfunkshunal :.