HuntingNut
HuntingNut
   Login or Register
HomeCommunity ForumsPhoto AlbumsRegister
     
 

User Info

Welcome Anonymous


Membership:
Latest: RichardZ
New Today: 0
New Yesterday: 0
Overall: 13126

People Online:
Members: 0
Visitors: 203
BOT: 0
Total: 203
Who Is Where:
 Visitors:
01: Forums
02: Forums
03: Home
04: Forums
05: Your Account
06: Forums
07: Home
08: Forums
09: Forums
10: Home
11: Forums
12: Forums
13: Forums
14: Home
15: Home
16: Your Account
17: Home
18: Home
19: Home
20: Home
21: Your Account
22: Home
23: Home
24: Home
25: News
26: Your Account
27: Your Account
28: Your Account
29: Home
30: Your Account
31: Forums
32: Home
33: Forums
34: Home
35: Your Account
36: Forums
37: Forums
38: Your Account
39: Forums
40: Forums
41: Forums
42: Forums
43: Forums
44: Home
45: Forums
46: Forums
47: Forums
48: Home
49: Forums
50: Home
51: Forums
52: Forums
53: Forums
54: Forums
55: Forums
56: Forums
57: Home
58: Forums
59: Forums
60: Your Account
61: Forums
62: Forums
63: Forums
64: Home
65: Home
66: Forums
67: Your Account
68: Home
69: Photo Albums
70: Forums
71: Forums
72: Home
73: Forums
74: Home
75: Forums
76: Forums
77: Forums
78: Forums
79: Your Account
80: Home
81: Photo Albums
82: Forums
83: Forums
84: Your Account
85: Forums
86: Home
87: Members List
88: Forums
89: Your Account
90: Forums
91: Your Account
92: Home
93: Forums
94: Forums
95: Forums
96: Forums
97: Your Account
98: Your Account
99: Forums
100: Home
101: Forums
102: Your Account
103: Home
104: Photo Albums
105: Forums
106: Home
107: Forums
108: Forums
109: Forums
110: Photo Albums
111: Your Account
112: Your Account
113: Forums
114: Forums
115: Home
116: Home
117: Forums
118: Photo Albums
119: Home
120: Forums
121: Forums
122: Home
123: Home
124: Forums
125: Home
126: Home
127: Photo Albums
128: Forums
129: Forums
130: Forums
131: Forums
132: Forums
133: Your Account
134: Forums
135: Forums
136: Your Account
137: Forums
138: Forums
139: Forums
140: Forums
141: Your Account
142: Your Account
143: Your Account
144: Forums
145: Forums
146: Forums
147: Forums
148: Forums
149: Home
150: Forums
151: Forums
152: Forums
153: Forums
154: Forums
155: Your Account
156: Forums
157: Forums
158: Forums
159: Forums
160: Forums
161: Forums
162: Forums
163: Forums
164: News
165: Home
166: Forums
167: Forums
168: Forums
169: Forums
170: Photo Albums
171: Your Account
172: Forums
173: Forums
174: Home
175: Forums
176: Forums
177: Photo Albums
178: Photo Albums
179: Forums
180: Photo Albums
181: Home
182: Forums
183: Photo Albums
184: Forums
185: Your Account
186: Home
187: Photo Albums
188: Forums
189: Photo Albums
190: Forums
191: Forums
192: Home
193: Home
194: Forums
195: Photo Albums
196: Forums
197: Forums
198: Forums
199: Home
200: Forums
201: Forums
202: Forums
203: Home

Staff Online:

No staff members are online!
 

Coppermine Stats
Photo Albums
 Albums: 308
 Pictures: 2451
  · Views: 820725
  · Votes: 1316
  · Comments: 86
 

Self Defence
Discussions related to Guns and Firearms
Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Shomebigbores
Member
Member


Joined: Dec 14, 2005
Posts: 77
Location: Arizona

PostPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2005 7:38 pm    Post subject: Re: Self Defence Reply with quote

One more thing that can help; Wear loose fitting pants. The stuff can fall out the bottom and maybe the bear will slip on it while your running and shooting.

_________________
One ought never to turn one's back on a threatened danger and try to run away from it. If you do that, you will double the danger. But if you meet it promptly and without flinching, you will reduce the danger by half.
Sir Winston Churchill
Back to top
View user's profile
Bushmaster
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: Jun 12, 2005
Posts: 11390
Location: Ava, Missouri

PostPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2005 10:19 pm    Post subject: Re: Self Defence Reply with quote

Any one killed a griz here lately while fishing??? A shot gun? where in hell you going to carry a shot gun with all that tackle and fish. It would have to be a short barreled one that fit into a holster...Snub off the stock too...Shoot the guide...He's the one that got you in this mess in the first place...Damned guide anyway...My choice??? One of the big bore magnum revovers or a reliable Auto Mag...

_________________
I have one nerve left and yer standin' on it...

DEMOCRACY Two wolves and one sheep voting on what to have for lunch...
LIBERTY A well armed sheep contesting the outcome of the vote...
Back to top
View user's profile
Shomebigbores
Member
Member


Joined: Dec 14, 2005
Posts: 77
Location: Arizona

PostPosted: Fri Dec 16, 2005 1:43 pm    Post subject: Re: Self Defence Reply with quote

or a reliable Auto Mag...

Bushmaster, If I were to trust an auto mag to operate in foul weather it would be a 1911 conversion to 460 Rowland. That would definatly stop a charging bear when the shots enter at the base of the neck.

Walt

_________________
One ought never to turn one's back on a threatened danger and try to run away from it. If you do that, you will double the danger. But if you meet it promptly and without flinching, you will reduce the danger by half.
Sir Winston Churchill
Back to top
View user's profile
Bushmaster
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: Jun 12, 2005
Posts: 11390
Location: Ava, Missouri

PostPosted: Fri Dec 16, 2005 6:59 pm    Post subject: Re: Self Defence Reply with quote

Damn!!! Another screemin' Conservitive...I just might like him if I don't shoot him first...Oh...Sorry...Can't do that...

I have concidered modifying my Colt .45 ACP to the .45 Super or the .460 Rowland. Still thinking about it. Although I don't plan on being any where near a Griz in the near future. Figure I can deal with the local Black bears with what I have.

By The Way...It's nice to have another person to argue with (and I will argue at the drop of a wide brimmed hat)...Welcome aboard...

_________________
I have one nerve left and yer standin' on it...

DEMOCRACY Two wolves and one sheep voting on what to have for lunch...
LIBERTY A well armed sheep contesting the outcome of the vote...
Back to top
View user's profile
515034s10ring
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: Sep 08, 2005
Posts: 1153
Location: Working my way back up and around

PostPosted: Tue Dec 20, 2005 9:57 am    Post subject: Re: Self Defence Reply with quote

Some Auto Mag's are reliable.....or were? Confused I don't know, nor can i speak for others than a Wildey, but the two i had (44 A-M and 475W A-M) shot very well and in the nastiest Michigan weather. Many of the problems i've seen was the way people (uneducated to the gas regulator) would keep on screwing around with the gun and make wrong adjustments. I can honestly say that i wish i never sold the guns (and extra barrels) because now they are $$$$ unless you get one used Sad

_________________
Why no......I'm really not an outdoorsmsn at all. But i did stay in a Holiday Inn Express last night!
Back to top
View user's profile
mikekuzara
Member
Member


Joined: Sep 13, 2005
Posts: 147
Location: Farson, Wyoming

PostPosted: Tue Dec 20, 2005 10:03 am    Post subject: Re: Self Defence Reply with quote

The best thing to carry for bear defense is a large can of pepper spray designed for bears, and a magnum handgun for back up.

I worked in Yellowstone Park for 6 years and spoke with several rangers who were charged by Grizzly Bears. All of them used the pepper spray and only one had the bear try again, but when he gave it another shot with the pepper spray it took off as well.

Using the spray has several advantages over shotguns or handguns.

1. It is non-lethal, so you don't have to worry about being fined and possibly jailed as well as losing hunting and fishing rights if you "didn't do everything by the book"

2. You don't have to be terribly accurate. If you have never been on the recieving end of a charging Grizz you probably don't realize just how FAST these things are. You might have time to get a pistol out and get off 1 or 2 shots. If you don't have a shotgun in your hands, loaded, safety off, you might as well carry a baseball bat.

3. If you need to carry that much firepower, there is no game due to the number of bears, and you sure as hell are not going to be able to do much fishing (cast, spin and scan, cast, jump out of waders when stick breaks)

4. If the pepper spray doesn't work, use it or the magnum on yourself. You will either taste too spicy for the bear or not care what the bear does.

5. If you are not on target with the pepper spray, it will still work. If you off target with a gun, you are just going to REALLY piss the bear off. You have upgraded yourself from something that needs a warning (which is what 99.9% of maulings are), to a threat. Ask yourself if you really want to be percieved as a threat by something that can tear the head off an elk with one swipe of a paw?

I helped treat several bear maulings while I worked in Yellowstone. They impressed a few things on me.
The maulings were not intended to kill, if they had, the human would have been dead in the first 2 seconds of the attack.
99% were due to HUMAN error. (walking through the woods with a walkman palying full blast etc.)

The best thing to pack for defense is your head. If you have no respect for the fact that you are NOT at the top of the food chain anymore, then you will get into trouble. Use your head, follow bear guidelines, and don't be so arrogant as to think that you will be able to "whip out my hogleg and put six shots into that bear". If you have never been closer than a tv or movie screen to a Griz, you don't have a clue. It is more likely you will be rooted to the ground, unable to do much more than make wee wee down both legs. Being run down by a Mack Truck on the interstate is slightly less scary than being in front of a charging Grizzly.

I have watched these creatures hunt, kill, and just plain live. I have seen, and sewn up, the results of encounters with them.

When a Grizzly charges, it comes at you full speed (30 mph by the way, if you want to practise shooting a charging bear, holster or sling the gun and jump out 50 yards in front of a compact car doing 30 mph and try to draw, aim and shoot the right front head light out, while the driver is swerving back and forth, blowing the horn) with jaws popping like gunshots and growling loud enough to drown out the pounding of your heart, the ground shaking with it's footsteps, knocking over 3 inch trees like toothpicks, and slobber flying.

Just remember the advice that a ranger friend gave out to people who wanted to know where to go to see bears.

"Bears, are where they find you"

_________________
Build a fire for a man and he is warm for a day.

Set a man on fire and he is warm the rest of his life.
Back to top
View user's profile Photo Gallery
515034s10ring
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: Sep 08, 2005
Posts: 1153
Location: Working my way back up and around

PostPosted: Tue Dec 20, 2005 11:25 am    Post subject: Re: Self Defence Reply with quote

I remember reading years back about a few guys that bought BIG 'ol cans of bear pepper spray for an outing that had potential of bear attacks. Well, as unluck would have it, durring a chase they did manage to spray the bear, but they also sprayed themselves from being downwind from it.

The way i see it, if i can't can't kill a bear with either 1650 grains (minimum 44 mag revolver), 1800 grains or (including 1 reload in total) 3600 grains (10MM) of copper and/or lead.... then i deserve whats comming to me!

Now i'm not saying anything against pepper spray or "OC" because i'd even carry it as a last resort in the event i wasn't able to take the bear down.

With however, the analogy of 30 mph and 50 yards, that gives you aprox. 4 seconds to run, draw, shoot, and get out of the way (in any particular order). Which if you are in the scenario, and have to act in a defensive situation, you should have plenty of time to do that, in the given time.
But i do understand that people think they are up to the task, and don't even think of training or shooting their firearm for that kind of situation which unfortunately it then becomes statistical.

_________________
Why no......I'm really not an outdoorsmsn at all. But i did stay in a Holiday Inn Express last night!
Back to top
View user's profile
Shomebigbores
Member
Member


Joined: Dec 14, 2005
Posts: 77
Location: Arizona

PostPosted: Tue Dec 20, 2005 11:45 am    Post subject: Re: Self Defence Reply with quote

Sad Oh Well, guess I've had it then. Been in a tight spot a couple of times albeit not in front of a charging grizz or coastal Brown. I was checked out once while trying to get a picture of a griz in Alaska. Got a picture of a sow sucking juice out of a can of peaches while the one I wanted a picture of was checking me out behind the tree I was sitting in front of. Guess I wasn't his flavor, but my host gave me a couple of pictures he took of him. He was big for a mountain brown. Could've snatched me up and had dinner if he had chosen. I thank my Father in Heaven for that one. I also got a Butt chewin for going outside the cabin I was supposed to stay in. My host got over that faster than the incident after that, but I'll save that story for another time. Cool

You can spray and pray my friend, and I'm not putting that down. I think I'll spray and blast as blasting something is always my first instinct. I can handle my 454 Alaskan with one hand. By the way, I think I can get my Alaskan out as fast as you can look in your fanny pack for the spray. Very Happy

Just my opine, and intention. Since I'm not real big on fishin, (just like to eat what someone else catches Very Happy ) I would only be in those woods with plans to kill something anyway. That being said I would have my Marlin 45/70 in my hands. If he gets me first it would probably be fair huh. Toilet Claw

Now.........You may be right Mike, but my intention is two fold. Shoot the guide and then the bear. One of them is going to need some relief after chasing my butt while slipping on my feces.

JUS A PIKIN & A GRINNIN Very Happy

Walt

_________________
One ought never to turn one's back on a threatened danger and try to run away from it. If you do that, you will double the danger. But if you meet it promptly and without flinching, you will reduce the danger by half.
Sir Winston Churchill
Back to top
View user's profile
515034s10ring
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: Sep 08, 2005
Posts: 1153
Location: Working my way back up and around

PostPosted: Tue Dec 20, 2005 2:33 pm    Post subject: Re: Self Defence Reply with quote

Shomebigbores wrote:


You can spray and pray my friend, and I'm not putting that down. I think I'll spray and blast as blasting something is always my first instinct. I can handle my 454 Alaskan with one hand. By the way, I think I can get my Alaskan out as fast as you can look in your fanny pack for the spray. Very Happy

Walt


AMEN to that! Cheers

_________________
Why no......I'm really not an outdoorsmsn at all. But i did stay in a Holiday Inn Express last night!
Back to top
View user's profile
mikekuzara
Member
Member


Joined: Sep 13, 2005
Posts: 147
Location: Farson, Wyoming

PostPosted: Tue Dec 20, 2005 11:41 pm    Post subject: Re: Self Defence Reply with quote

Since the question was defense in bear country, I assumed that if you were hunting in bear country, you would already have a gun in hand.

Since the choices were rifle or pistol, I would take it that you are doing something else in the woods. Fishing, hiking, camping. Try to do any of these with a rifle or shotgun, and you will either get very tired of packing it in your hands, or sling it. If you sling it, you might as well not take it.

I was being generous in the 50 yard example, as the longest distance a bear came from in the maulings I worked on was about 20 yards, most were shorter.

The vast majority of people who have used firearms for self defense in this area got off one shot if they were lucky and then got a "spanking" from the bear.

Don't get me wrong, all the rangers and guides I know that have used pepper spray also had a sidearm in the other hand. But these are people who work and live around Grizzlies all the time. They are in tune with what is going on around them and are constantly alert. If you have to ask what a suitable defense weapon is, you are better off with the spray.

Just don't take the packaging label of "bear repellent" literally. We had at least 6 dumbasses a year come into the hospital who thought it worked like Deep Woods Off. Since these things will spray a stream out to 20 to 30 feet, they wound up with OC imbedded under their skin. OUCH!

BTW bigbores, I wear my bear spray on my belt, on the left side, my M1911 on the right side, loaded with hardball ammo. having it a fanny pack makes as much sense as keeping a gun in your back pack. I can draw either just as quickly, but I would try the spray first. Many charges are a "bluff" charge. The bear letting you know that you are in the wrong place at the wrong time and he isn't happy about it.

Also, as I have some very good friends who are rangers and game wardens, the usual outcome of firearm self defense against a Griz is a wounded Griz. Since they are the ones who have to go out and track these wounded bears down and finish them off, I firmly believe 90% of the population should use the pepper spray. If someone can't hit a standing mule deer at 100 yards with a solid rest on the first shot, then they have exactly a snowballs chance in hell of hitting a charging Griz.

Some advice from people who have "been there"
1. Don't look the bear in the eye, they take it as a sign of agression
2. Don't run. They can run much faster than you, and it triggers threir prey instinct.
3. Play dead. One guy who was mauled was apperently confused about bear attacks and shark attacks. He thought that if he poked the bear in the eye it would leave. All he managed to accomplish wasa feeding the bear the last two fingers on that hand. After he remebered that he was supposed to play dead, and did, the bear sniffed him and walked off.
4. When you are in Griz country, you are not at the top of the food chain anymore, you are one link down.
5. If you have never been around big bears, imagine a pit bull the size of VW bug, and about the same weight.

Last of all, the feds will nail your ass to the wall for killing or wounding a griz if you were not 100% in the right. They are still an endangered species in the lower 48, and the feds really don't care if you were scared or not. If I use pepper spray first, then there is no room for arguement that I "did all I could".

_________________
Build a fire for a man and he is warm for a day.

Set a man on fire and he is warm the rest of his life.
Back to top
View user's profile Photo Gallery
Shomebigbores
Member
Member


Joined: Dec 14, 2005
Posts: 77
Location: Arizona

PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2005 12:21 am    Post subject: Re: Self Defence Reply with quote

Ignore Hiding
Thanks Mike, You are right on the mark with all I have been told and read. Like I said, my only expeience with them was at night while they were looking for a snack. I just wasn't the silvertips flavor.

I will admit having pepper spray as a fundamental part of my woods equipment. I was trying to put some humor into a serious conversation. I also like the way you carry your spray, I'll have to look for a holster. I also like your .458 defense as that particular gun has proven itself in the wet, dirty service and fires reliably.

Thanks for all your time and advice.

Walt

_________________
One ought never to turn one's back on a threatened danger and try to run away from it. If you do that, you will double the danger. But if you meet it promptly and without flinching, you will reduce the danger by half.
Sir Winston Churchill
Back to top
View user's profile
Flint54
Member
Member


Joined: Apr 09, 2005
Posts: 389
Location: North Carolina

PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2005 2:43 am    Post subject: Re: Self Defence Reply with quote

Having lived around large Kodiak Browns for a few years I will say this. These creatures are totaly unpredictable. They are without question one of the most magnifcent animals that I have ever had the pleasure to observe. They are also very deadly when they decide to be. I had the chance to hunt them but being that even the natives would not use them as food and having the most displeasurable opportunity to sample one, I made the decision that there was no justifiable reason to harvest one.

I really wish that back then I could have had some of the OC Bear Defence Spray, having read first hand accounts of its use and also using slightly lower consentrations in my job hnd having seen its use on very visous dogs I would be very comfortable using this as a first response.

As far as my choice of a defence weapon each individual needs to look at their training and abilities. I have actually used a 12ga loaded with 00 Buck & slugs to assist in terminating a wounded Kodiak. I am able to clear, aim & fire my first round from my 870 or 500 within 2 tenths of a second of a handgun. This is slung over my left shoulder with the muzzle down. My choice now as it was back then is a reliable pump 12ga, first round 00buck, this shot is to the face followed by slugs to the neck/chest as was taught by F&G Officials in Kodiak. The buck will destroy their limited sight, smell and hearing.

I will also say that my Ruger .45 Colt with 300gr hard cast at @ 1100fps was also on my hip if needed along with my partner. We never went out alone up there, even fishing without a partner and being armed. It just wasn't healthy or smart. Sniper
Back to top
View user's profile Photo Gallery
mikekuzara
Member
Member


Joined: Sep 13, 2005
Posts: 147
Location: Farson, Wyoming

PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2005 7:37 am    Post subject: Re: Self Defence Reply with quote

Amen!

I was trying to get two main points across, and you illustrated them beautifuly Flint54.

1. Unless you have been closer than a TV or movie screen from these animals, you really don't know how big, fast, and unpredictable they can be.

2. Most people do not have the training or ability to sucessfully use a firearm against a Griz.

If you want to talk about a pucker factor 10 experience, talk to Flint54 about trackiing wounded Griz or Browns. That is the usual result of human bear encounters with guns.

Shomebigbores, I realize you were being humorous. I just take this matter seriously. I have been there in the ER washing and helping stitch up(2500 cm of sutures on one guy) people who have been mauled. Embarassed sorry for getting on my soap box, but I will stick to 90% of the people in the woods being better off with bear spray.

_________________
Build a fire for a man and he is warm for a day.

Set a man on fire and he is warm the rest of his life.
Back to top
View user's profile Photo Gallery
515034s10ring
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: Sep 08, 2005
Posts: 1153
Location: Working my way back up and around

PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2005 10:33 am    Post subject: Re: Self Defence Reply with quote

I do see what you are saying in the fact that i myself, haven't encountered a grizz though..... and yes, they are endangered and with the correct use of OC will/could give an ample oppertunity to get free and clear. Although, i have encountered a few (and not by choice) black bears, and i could only imagine something 4+ foot taller looking at me, as if i were their mid afternoon snack.

Now, if at all i rarely see bears while hunting because i don't hunt in the same areas i used to. Nor have any bears i harvested, or shot in defence even remotely reached 10' and 1k Shocked

I do agree with you 110% mikekuzara, with this statement "with the usual outcome of firearm self defense against a Griz is a wounded Griz" because lets face reality.....People often think they WILL be able, and in a sound state of mind, to shoot and kill in a defensive situation.....I'll be the first to admit, there is no way in hell unless you have prior defensive shooting training and even then, every situation is different. Eventhough i have competed in different pistol events, and have a good amount of pistol knowledge....i can honestly say, with something as mammoth as a griz, i don't know how i would react other than the sudden apperance of a skid! Cool

_________________
Why no......I'm really not an outdoorsmsn at all. But i did stay in a Holiday Inn Express last night!
Back to top
View user's profile
mikekuzara
Member
Member


Joined: Sep 13, 2005
Posts: 147
Location: Farson, Wyoming

PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2005 10:31 pm    Post subject: Re: Self Defence Reply with quote

AMEN

As one of the rangers said to a nervous hiker, who had asked what they should do if they could not help it and ran from a Griz. "Just reach down on the trail and pick up some shit and throw it in the bears eyes" The hiker said" what if there isn't any?"

The ranger replied, "Don't worry, if a 1000 pound Grizzly is chasing you, there WILL be shit behind you."

_________________
Build a fire for a man and he is warm for a day.

Set a man on fire and he is warm the rest of his life.
Back to top
View user's profile Photo Gallery
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic   Printer Friendly Page    Forum Index » Gun & Firearm Discussions
Page 2 of 3
All times are GMT - 7 Hours
Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next



Jump to:  


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum


Valid CSS! Valid HTML 4.01!
Click to check if this page is realy HTML 4.01 compliant for speed :)

All logos and trademarks in this site are property of HuntingNut.com.
The comments are property of their posters, all the rest © 2011 by HuntingNut.com
Interactive software released under GNU GPL, Code Credits, Privacy Policy

.: Upgraded to DragonFly 9.2 by *Dizfunkshunal* :.