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shotshell diff's...
Discussion regarding the reloading of ammunition and tuning of loads for accuracy
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stovepipe
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 12, 2010 4:42 pm    Post subject: shotshell diff's... Reply with quote

Was sorting through some rounds today, there's target loads, game loads, etc.

Was wondering what the diff was between target loads and game loads when pellet size/count, velocity and shell lentgh are the same?

Could it be a different wad, pellet hardness, powder or...? I pretty much use what's at hand cuz dead is a dead when ya connect but wondered if/what the difference was? I know hi-brass and low brass means nothing (so I've read) and that aint my point but all things being equal sans the label's intended use got me wondering.

Any idea's guys?
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slimjim
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 12, 2010 6:34 pm    Post subject: Re: shotshell diff's... Reply with quote

Maybe the same reason there are so many variations of Goop! Its all the same but different packaging improves marketing.

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Vince
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 12, 2010 9:22 pm    Post subject: Re: shotshell diff's... Reply with quote

The only difference that I know Stovey is pretty much the same sorta difference as there is between target and "real" loads for pistol.

As best I can work out the only difference is the powder used and of course the quantities. I believe they use faster burning powders for the target loads than they do for field loads.

As for the shot...the count would be no different...depending of course on the weight, although over here, we are restricted to #9 shot for skeet and #7.5 shot for all other target disciplines. I think from memory too, we are restricted to 28 gram (1 oz) loads except for Sporting Clays where you can use up to 32 gram (1 1/8 oz).

The only other difference is the type of case...

12 Gauge 2¾" (70mm) Winchester Compression-formed AA & HS type plastic cases...

12 Gauge 2¾" (70mm) ACTIV Plastic Cases...or

12 Gauge 2¾" (70mm) Plastic Reiffenhaauser style cases (Fiocchi Cheddite)
.

Load data is NOT interchangeable for the different type of cases...neither are the plastic wads. ALWAYS ensure that you use the correct wad and load data for the type of case you are using...dangerous pressures can result...and maybe even worse...crappy accuracy.

Cheers, Vince

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tikkat3
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 12, 2010 10:24 pm    Post subject: Re: shotshell diff's... Reply with quote

I think Vince is on the money.
Most target loads seem restricted to an ounce of shot or less with a bit more MV
and Field loads carry more shot
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Aloysius
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 13, 2010 12:45 am    Post subject: Re: shotshell diff's... Reply with quote

And remember:

- for lead: only small shot (usually N°5 and up) is made of hard lead (high Sb-contents) and the less dents, the more round shaped, the farther the shotcolumn will stay together. (open a cartridges and roll the shot over a table, when they stop at once, they are dented. When shot is already dented on loading, it's not going to improve when it passes the barrel!)
- smaller shotsizes listen better to chokes than coarse
- the shorter the shotcolumn inside the shell, the more potential to shoot far (don't compare buffered and non-buffered shot!)
- decreasing speed means better pattern
- high speed (think steel shot) will make full-choke often over-choked and makes spreading shot instead of increasing patterns.
- don't believe what's written or what others say, test yourself! And a piece of paper doesn't say anything about shotcolumn-length nor it's composition
- and when you reload, remember you're using a lot of very fast powder behind a rather heavy load, this gives not so much room for experiments.
- and calculate: about 28 gram (1 Oz) steelshot contains as many pellets as 36 gram leadshot, so in my opinion the 35-36 gram steelshot is only made for hunters who think big but are rather small...

I often use targetloads on a dovehunt: good price, short shotcolumn, good pattern, high speed. Just remember: when your first pellets are behind the target also all the rest of the pellets are lost...

And now the contradictions...
theoretically 1 Oz shot in cal. 12 should be better for a long shot than the same charge in a cal. 20, but often that's not the case... maybe the smaller caliber invites better aiming?


Stovey, that's a mouthfull... so when you don't understand, bend your head to the left or to the right, let 'it' flow together and read again Smile
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Elvis
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 13, 2010 12:58 am    Post subject: Re: shotshell diff's... Reply with quote

most target loads as vince has said are around the oz mark most are of shot smaller than #7 field and hunting loads are usualy oz and1/8 oz and 1/4 or oz and 3/8 shot sizes are #6 throughto #BB target loads are light on recoil by a heap compared to a field load velocity is a little different too the hardness of good target loads is made by a higher a anatimony content. yip I probably spelt that wrong! but yes dead is dead. I wouldnt use target loads for any thing bigger than pigeons although I believe guys use them alot for pheasant pesonaly I would go for a field load of #5s any day.

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stovepipe
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 13, 2010 7:34 am    Post subject: Re: shotshell diff's... Reply with quote

Aloysius wrote:
Stovey, that's a mouthfull... so when you don't understand, bend your head to the left or to the right, let 'it' flow together and read again Smile

Boss is wondering why I'm tilting my head left and right.... Laughing And yes, ya gotta nail it with the sub-gauge. They hit hard but with only 7/8oz ya dont have as many pellets to do the job.

So- I think I guessed it. All things being equal, hull lentgh, shot size/count, velocity, the main diff would be pellet hardness? Maybe a diff speed powder too?

Very intresting answers from all, Vince's bit about hull matrix too.

I don't reload for shot shell. I was going to at one point and did some reasearch but shot and stuff's too hard to get here. And expensive. Ca is trying to phase out lead. I do know, as stated, shotshells leave little room for error, if any. Them tubes is thin. Also learned about wad crush and crimp relation (critical) and stuff, guess once ya find a combo it's business as usual but there's some learning curves there.

Good discussion gents. I like knowing how things tick and I don't fee like shorting a box or two buy cutting some hulls open.

Shot two rounds of trap yesterday with my Benelli Ultralight 20g, unmounted, trying to tune up for ground birds.
Got 18/25 first round, sucked the second round and blew some mounts and ooops- that little feather slaps hard Mad . Trigger is so nice on it, compared to the Russian, I shot behind a few- ooops. Embarassed Man my junk shoulder is sore. Boy I was wishing I was shooting my clunker Russian heayweight trapper pre-mounted the second round. Laughing

Morning Bushy! Wave Almost quail/chukar seson!
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44marty
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 13, 2010 12:06 pm    Post subject: Re: shotshell diff's... Reply with quote

I'm getting dizzy with all this head-tilting. Man, that is some complicated combinations of stuff to remember if you plan to load shotgun shells.

The only thing I really have learned over the years with shotgun shooting is that is is important to pattern your shotgun to see what size shot it likes. With the wrong combination, you get clusters of shot with great big gaping holes (lack of holes) in the pattern.

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chambered221
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 13, 2010 4:21 pm    Post subject: Re: shotshell diff's... Reply with quote

Typically the more expensive the box is, you get better quality components !!!

Target cases are better suited for re-loading. They employ better plastics that hold up to multiple re-loadings. They are also market the factory stuff with a specific clay discipline in mind. (speed, shot size and amount of shot)

The cheaper economy packs are put together with components that didn't make the grade for the premium loadings. Not to say there is anything wrong with them.

Some loads offer plated shot and buffered loads.

As a dedicated skeet shooter for about 15 years I was amazed to see how easily a pattern could be changed. A mere 1 or 2 points of choke constriction could change the pattern significantly. And don't think that by shooting one shell on paper your getting the true story.

Re-loading shot shell in my opinion is the easiest and the most forgiving of all the loading I've done.

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Elvis
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 14, 2010 1:14 am    Post subject: Re: shotshell diff's... Reply with quote

yip loading the .410 is a breese compared to rifle loads and you get to play with duplex loads to make you think you will shoot better. Very Happy

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stovepipe
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 14, 2010 6:49 am    Post subject: Re: shotshell diff's... Reply with quote

chambered221 wrote:


Typically the more expensive the box is, you get better quality components !!!


Re-loading shot shell in my opinion is the easiest and the most forgiving of all the loading I've done.


I knew that!

Hmm...I've only read up on the subject- seems kinda fussy to me with the crimp and the wad and the crush and and and. But...like anything else...
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chambered221
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 14, 2010 4:54 pm    Post subject: Re: shotshell diff's... Reply with quote

The key to it is using the same hull !!! Don't mix brands and styles of hulls !!!
When I needed new ones I would buy 4 or 5 cases of factory stuff shoot them then start re-loading them.
When you first set the press up to load there are things that need to be set correctly but it's easy. Most presses are ready to go for Remington and Winchester target hulls with only a little fine tuning needed.
Once things are set up very little needs to be done to maintain the set up.
In all those years I shot skeet I've only had to make a few OAL adjustments, a couple of crimp adjustments and 1 powder bushing adjustment.
That was for 3 12ga. loads, a 20ga. load and 28ga. (Love that 28 Very Happy )

If your not gonna shoot a lot it may not be worth the investment. Most all my components were bought in bulk at club discounts. That's were the savings really kicks in.

Don't be intimidated.........it's the easiest of all re-loading.
Just get use to the fact every now and then a load of BB's will find their way to your table and floor.......I hate when that happens !!! Bang Head

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Vince
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 15, 2010 12:14 am    Post subject: Re: shotshell diff's... Reply with quote

Chambered wrote:
Just get use to the fact every now and then a load of BB's will find their way to your table and floor.......I hate when that happens !!! Bang Head

BB's ain't so bad mate...wait till its a 1 oz load of #7.5 or #9 shot...now that's a mess. burr Laughing

Cheers, Vince

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Last edited by Vince on Wed Sep 15, 2010 1:52 am; edited 1 time in total
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Elvis
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 15, 2010 1:49 am    Post subject: Re: shotshell diff's... Reply with quote

they all sound great going up the metal vacume cleaner tube!!!
wizzzzzzzzz

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Vince
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 15, 2010 1:54 am    Post subject: Re: shotshell diff's... Reply with quote

My missus would gut me if I used the vacuum cleaner to clean up a mess of dropped shot.

Cheers, Vince

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Illegitimi non carborundum
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Live simply. Love generously. Care deeply. Speak kindly. Leave the rest to God.

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