I am Baaack!!

Elvis · Posted: Tue May 17, 2011 12:47 am Post subject: Re: I am Baaack!!

glad you had a good trip but sorry guys I still dont trust anyone Mad

you can blindfold with a shoelace.

gelandangan · Posted: Tue May 17, 2011 1:28 am Post subject: Re: I am Baaack!!

Elvis wrote:

anyone

you can blindfold with a shoelace.

Elvis, I look at such a person everyday I shave. Embarassed

Vince · Posted: Tue May 17, 2011 3:29 am Post subject: Re: I am Baaack!!

gelandangan wrote:

Elvis wrote:

anyone

you can blindfold with a shoelace.

Elvis, I look at such a person everyday I shave. Embarassed

No ya don't Gelan...you is a little short rotund dude with a bald head, tall cap and a shotgun...hunting WABBITS. Laughing

Cheers, Vince

stovepipe · Posted: Tue May 17, 2011 8:50 am Post subject: Re: I am Baaack!!

Elvis wrote:

glad you had a good trip but sorry guys I still dont trust anyone Mad

you can blindfold with a shoelace.

Great visual! Laughing

Dimitri · Super Member Joined: Nov 25, 2005 Posts: 5946

gelandangan wrote:

Anyone think to visit China?

Ni Hao!

Anyways the girlfriend wants me to visit China, to see her family which lives there. But its about 2,500km's from where you went. Still when we go we decided to hit Beijing, then a 23-24 train ride to her province's capital (Yinchuan) to see her family, then a trip to Shanghai, then Taipei. There is a manufacturing city her sister works at in Northern China, that I want to visit, as I've seen many machine tools come from there in the past but the name is slipping my mind at the moment.

Suzanne wrote:

I won't be helping out communist countries

China has not been a communist country since Mao died more or less.

Suzanne wrote:

2/3 of rural workers don't have pensions.

Everyone who works in China has a pension, its a legal requirement for many decades. On top of that, the Chinese people do not believe in the banking system or the government, so they make their own savings, and keep it for themselves stashed away. China's history of Dynasty's that filled their own wallets with gold and let the rest of the country suffer has created this line of thinking and its doubtful it will go away anytime soon.

Additionally, the Chinese like many of the older world cultures don't throw out their children or do the children throw their parents out. The children are expected to support their parents when the parents get old and stop working. Even the Chinese I know that have immigrated to Canada, still send money home to provide a comfortable living to their parents thousands of miles away.

Suzanne wrote:

On Tuesday, President Hu Jintao said the "one-child" policy, which applies to most families, would continue, as the population continues to strain resources and government services.

The policy is a myth, depending on how you look at it. If you live in a Urban center, sure there are no official exemptions to the rule for you, however, some urban centers have started to allow families of 2 single children parents to have 2 children instead of just one.

Disabled servicemen are allowed 2 children.

People who give birth to a disabled child, or the child becomes disabled, or the child dies in a accident are allowed to have another child.

In rural areas, if the first child is a girl, after about 4 year "birth spacing" your allowed to have another child.

Chinese "listed" minorities, can have multiple children. My girlfriend's family for example, being Hui, is allowed to have up to 2 children in urban areas or up to 4 depending on the specific rural location. (She is the 3rd child in a family of 4 by the way).

There are fines, equal to the "average disposable income" that is the average amount of money above the cost of living in the area that someone in the same region makes on the year of the child's birth, plus costs for schooling and medicine on a ongoing basis. So having a additional child is possible as long as your willing to pay for it above these limits and exceptions.

Suzanne wrote:

So it came as a shock when, in 2007, China tested a weapon in space, destroying one of its old satellites. Despite this, however, Beijing continued to insist that it was opposed to the militarization of space.

The PLA did the test, not their civilian space agency. There is a BIG difference. The purpose of the test, was not to weaponize space, it was to show that China is able to do something no one else had done till that point, and it was to show that while other countries may have the money and the technology to fill space with spy satellites and the like. That the PLA has the ability to protect their sovereignty if and one the time comes.

Remember while the western idea that the military is in direct control by the country's government. That is not really the case in many parts of the world. Remember Egypt's Army threw out their own President, cause they acted as the Army of the State, not that of the government. The military of many countries are tasked with defense of the country, irregardless of the inabilities of the Government. Which is why Egyptians cheered and supported the Army for taking over the government, which was for the defense of the State, its people, not the administration.

Suzanne wrote:

Statements by General Zhu were never explained.

Because there is no need to explain them, even the US makes these kind of statements, officially or unofficially every country does. Its called saber rattling, to keep your enemies at bay while still being able to treat them as "friends" while in peace time. Standard diplomatic double speak.

Dimitri

gelandangan · Posted: Tue May 17, 2011 3:13 pm Post subject: Re: I am Baaack!!

Mr D. your girl friend is a Hui? WOW!!
They are renown as one of the most beautiful people in China!

======
About communism

Due to the cold war, there is a lot of mis-information about communism.
China was in a real communism zeal when Mao rule the country,
but they woken up real fast even before the death of Mao.

It is easy to say lower things about other country while you are not there and never see the real stuff.
China is the world largest capitalist country, and that is the truth.
There is no socialism as shown in Australia or USA by giving social security.
There is no freebies if you are out of work or cannot pay your medical bill.

All governments are corrupt, some do it in the public, others kept it hidden.
I have the real experiences of living in both worlds, not just a passing observation,
I have grown up in Indonesia where everything in governmental wheel must be greased,
I have live in Australia where daily in the paper there are corruption charges.
The fact that there is ICAC (Independent Commission Against Corruption) show that THERE IS corruption in Oz.

News hounds are trying to exaggerate the differences in live styles of the foreign country,
to make the story much more interesting. It is much attractive to say that there are reeeaallyy bad person doing reeeallyy bad things, than there is an average person doing an average thing.
Believe what you believe, but one should get one's facts right before one take a stand on an issue.

There is a saying in China, "people of the four seas are all brothers", some believe it some don't.
Classifying people based on their appearances is the same as classifying a gun owner as murderer.

Suzanne · Posted: Tue May 17, 2011 4:53 pm Post subject: Re: I am Baaack!!

Dimi wipe the flowers out of your eyes, you're about to argue with a person that has been prosecuted, abused and demolished by a government.
A country can flourish only with good Government - who is hungry for success for the country, it's people, and have a passion to develop the country for the people. The poverty in western China, the lack of ethics resulting in producing products that harm people, the pollution of air and water, the population issue, doesn't sound like the government of China is concerned about it's people to me. Sounds like it's goal is to dominate at the cost of it's overwhelming population. Like sacrificial worker bees.

Say what you want about your individual experiences and tell me the one child policy is a myth, when in fact you also state that individuals may have more than one child IF. A big IF that doesn't include everyone now does it? If you noticed I got that from the President Hu Jintao, and it was stated last Tuesday. Did you read what he said? It will continue. Look up the meaning of myth.

It's a legal requirement that everyone has a pension? You clarified that by saying they have their own savings accounts. Without using a banking system. In other words they have saved for their own retirement. Look up the word pension.

China has not been a communist country since Mao died?

The Communist Party of China (CPC), also known as the Chinese Communist Party (CCP), is the founding and ruling political party of the People's Republic of China (PRC). Although nominally it exists alongside the United Front, in practice, the CPC is also the only party of the PRC, maintaining a unitary government centralising the state, military, and media. The legal power of the Communist Party is guaranteed by the PRC constitution.

That wasn't off the top of my head by the way, it happens to be that China is communist. The ruling party is ruler of everything Chinese. What you say, what you do, where you live, where you work. how many children you have, what you watch on TV, listen to on radio and so on. Yes they are slacking off and easing off a bit you can't deny they'll have to, to get along with the human rights advocates and international pressures resulting from their need to build.

The PLA is the military arm of the Peoples Republic of China. Yes they did the test. What does the civilian space agency have to do with it? They tested whether or not they could destroy an object in space, after denouncing militarization of space. And they have a right to protect their sovereignty, but they just told us space was off limits! Do you get the point?

People are people, governments are governments, one is not the other. I don't embrace a government's policy to dominate it's people. I'm sure they're happy oblivious to their plight, they've grown up that way. You can make all the excuses sound like there is minimal interference with their lives, but make excuses for the lack of individual rights when there is so much violation to them, and you may as well be in their midst. I would not denounce my country to live anywhere else, would you?

with love
Suz

Dimitri · Super Member Joined: Nov 25, 2005 Posts: 5946

Suzanne wrote:

the lack of ethics resulting in producing products that harm people, the pollution of air and water, the population issue, doesn't sound like the government of China is concerned about it's people to me.

You know what happens when you produce bad products for the domestic market in China? They execute you. Remember the milk scandal in 2008? The guy who produced the melamine was killed, as was the guy who added it to the milk. A 3rd is waiting for his death sentence. As well as 3 other people involved were given life in prison, who will never be free men till the day they die.

China has been increasing its environmental controls the last few years, especially for foreign companies. They are spending billions of dollars on a yearly basis for everything from farmland to forest conversions to water quality control since about the mid-90s.

Suzanne wrote:

A big IF that doesn't include everyone now does it?

It does include everyone if your willing to pay. And the fine is a modest fee, it is not jail time, or any real punishment. But the fact of the matter is, even before the one child policy the majority of people in China started to consider having more then one kid as too much of a burden after the war. Where as before the war, the majority had multiple children.

Suzanne wrote:

It's a legal requirement that everyone has a pension?

First Google result mentioning everyone who works in China has to contribute to the National pension plan. Since 1997 its been a legal requirement for everyone.

www.atimes.com/atimes/...1Cb01.html

However they have had older systems for pensions in China. And improvements have been integrated into the system for rural people more recently as the older systems were hit or miss, mainly on the miss side of things.

china.globaltimes.cn/s...54406.html

Suzanne wrote:

China has not been a communist country since Mao died?

Please go talk to a Chinese person, they'd agree with that statement. The CPC might be a dictatorship, but they are far from being Communist in anything but name.

Suzanne wrote:

The ruling party is ruler of everything Chinese. What you say, what you do, where you live, where you work. how many children you have, what you watch on TV, listen to on radio and so on.

Next thing your going to tell me is that there is no freedom of religion in China? Rolling Eyes

Suzanne wrote:

They tested whether or not they could destroy an object in space, after denouncing militarization of space.

The PLA and the PRC's Government don't always agree with each other or ask each other for permission. The J-20 flight was organized by the military, without the PRC's involvement when it happened to land on the US Secretary of Defense's visit which Hu by the way knew nothing about and was informed by Gates of the test flight in their meeting.

online.wsj.com/article...61586.html

Suzanne wrote:

I would not denounce my country to live anywhere else, would you?

No, but at the same time, I'm willing to talk to many of my friends who are Chinese, who all agree that Canada is a much better place, but at the same time, they all say China is not the China of 20 years ago that most of the West believes it still is.

Dimitri

Bushmaster · Posted: Tue May 17, 2011 7:16 pm Post subject: Re: I am Baaack!!

Hummmmm....As far as I'm concerned. China is still our enemy as is Russia.

Suzanne · Posted: Tue May 17, 2011 7:53 pm Post subject: Re: I am Baaack!!

This is too easy....you need some teeth? You're only gummin me. You wanna go point for point again? I'll give ya points if you find em, but I'm not backing down on my opinion. I don't even think you have an idea of what I'm saying anyway. You're just taking bullet points and trying to disprove them. What does that mean? You want to argue I guess...ok point by bloody point again...

So China has been improving it's environmental controls by killing offenders and imprisonment for life. That's sweet.

You can have more babies (although a limited number) IF you're willing to pay. There's some justice and humanity. Yup they're thinkin of the People alright.

The pension thing is a two part thing.
The article you advised me to read tells about reform of the pension plans for the city workers. Well that's less than 1/2 the people anyway. At current rates they'll have a deficit in the trillions by 2040. Did I miss something? Oh yeah they're talkin about setting up community pension funds...maybe they wanna get the rurral people involved after all. That's right they're talkin about employees, not rural people who have to pay the government to be able to work in the city (and receive that pension).

Oh part 2 of the pension thingy. And this comes direct from a Chinese website as did the other article. Who better to ask than the villian, who done it? Their very first words printed said;
Farmers will soon enjoy the same guaranteed incomes later in life as urban workers do, as the government yesterday announced that a trial pension plan would be implemented across China by October.
They're steppin up to the plate now! And you said everybody had one.....well they do now by golly, I should almost give you a point for that one.

Ok now communism.. this is a tough one because eveything that is labeled 'government' in China on the internet says communism. You say I should go talk to a Chinese person to determine what the government is all about...I'd say they moved here because of communism and prolly don't wanna go back because of communism.

I did not say anything about religion in China, you were fishing weren't you? I'm not biting.

Ok now the next one has really got me. The People's Liberation Army and the People's Republic of China. As far as I'm concerned China is China, the differing factions are in China, if they have a problem sorting things out and one of them sends a missile your way, are you going to try and figure out which one sent it, before you retaliate? I ask this because the thing is on the way now and it's only a matter of minutes. Make your decision because it's either from China or it's from China. Whata-ya-gona-do?

I really don't understand, your arguements have no point. Even that last thing you said about talking to your Chinese friends who happen to like Canada, and China is not the China of 20yrs ago. Did I say it was? You try and put some spin on things to make it all sound so reformed and it's not. They're in the process! Just like my boss says he's eventually going to get me trip to Hawaii. Ok....well it's not done yet, don't eat the pork till it's done.

Civil
Suz

Bushmaster · Posted: Tue May 17, 2011 8:00 pm Post subject: Re: I am Baaack!!

Wow!!! Looking for a ladder.

O K...Neutral corners and let's cool off a bit. Then try it again.

PaulS · Posted: Tue May 17, 2011 9:34 pm Post subject: Re: I am Baaack!!

China is a communist country that is practicing some amount of capitalism. The government has given a modest amount of ownership (which can be revoked) of goods to the people but it is a "gift" from the government who "rightfully" owns everything. The people do not have broad freedoms like in the free world and the "freedoms" they do have can be revoked by the government individually or en masse.

If China isn't a communist country - what kind of government do they have?

gelandangan · Posted: Tue May 17, 2011 9:59 pm Post subject: Re: I am Baaack!!

dictatorship.

inthedark · Posted: Tue May 17, 2011 10:03 pm Post subject: Re: I am Baaack!!

Bushmaster wrote:

Hummmmm....As far as I'm concerned. China is still our enemy as is Russia.

Bushy It is funny to think that while our governments boththe Canadian and the American were serving us a party line of China People's republic of and the Great Russian Bear as our sworn enemies. Did you know that some of our radio and radar systems couldn't function without the vacumn tubes that were only available in China and Russia and particulairly Russa. It sound stupid but it is a fact. The counter to this was that Russian armour and heavy trucks used brakes built in Saskatoon Saskatchewan by Rebus.
We have managed to deal with the problem of pollution in our respective countries by exporting the problem to China who builds a quality product at a price point a north american will buy at. We are too expensive to have producing the products that we consume, just look at your cars and trucks. The main reason for the outragious price we pay for a north american made vehicle is directly due to the hansome pension plans that were won by unions for their workers. Don't get me wrong I would like to work for a company that would give me a pension plan of 70 -80 -90 percent of what I was making while I was working. I dare say that if all imports from China and to a lesser degree Russia were ever stopped cold that north america would grind to a halt. Thats the price we pay for globalization of economies and no one or no country is an island if they want to survive and florish in this age.

Ominivision1 · Posted: Tue May 17, 2011 10:59 pm Post subject: Re: I am Baaack!!

Bushmaster wrote:

Wow!!! Looking for a ladder.

Ladders over here Bushy. Popcorn