HuntingNut
HuntingNut
   Login or Register
HomeCommunity ForumsPhoto AlbumsRegister
     
 

User Info

Welcome Anonymous


Membership:
Latest: RichardZ
New Today: 0
New Yesterday: 0
Overall: 13126

People Online:
Members: 0
Visitors: 727
BOT: 1
Total: 728
Who Is Where:
 Visitors:
01: Forums
02: Forums
03: Forums
04: Forums
05: Forums
06: Forums
07: Home
08: Your Account
09: Forums
10: Forums
11: Forums
12: Forums
13: Forums
14: Forums
15: Forums
16: Forums
17: Forums
18: Forums
19: Forums
20: Forums
21: Home
22: Forums
23: Forums
24: Your Account
25: Forums
26: Forums
27: Forums
28: Forums
29: Forums
30: Forums
31: Photo Albums
32: Forums
33: Forums
34: Forums
35: Your Account
36: Forums
37: Forums
38: Your Account
39: Forums
40: Forums
41: Forums
42: Forums
43: Forums
44: Forums
45: Forums
46: Forums
47: Forums
48: Forums
49: Forums
50: Your Account
51: Forums
52: Home
53: Forums
54: Your Account
55: Forums
56: Forums
57: Forums
58: Forums
59: Forums
60: Forums
61: Photo Albums
62: Home
63: Forums
64: Forums
65: Forums
66: Your Account
67: Forums
68: Forums
69: Forums
70: Your Account
71: Forums
72: Photo Albums
73: Home
74: Forums
75: Forums
76: Statistics
77: Your Account
78: Photo Albums
79: Photo Albums
80: Forums
81: Forums
82: Photo Albums
83: Forums
84: Forums
85: Forums
86: Forums
87: Forums
88: Your Account
89: Photo Albums
90: Forums
91: Forums
92: News
93: Forums
94: Forums
95: Your Account
96: Forums
97: Forums
98: Forums
99: Forums
100: Forums
101: Your Account
102: Forums
103: Forums
104: Your Account
105: Forums
106: Your Account
107: Forums
108: Forums
109: Forums
110: Your Account
111: Forums
112: Forums
113: Forums
114: Your Account
115: Forums
116: Forums
117: Home
118: Forums
119: Forums
120: Photo Albums
121: Forums
122: Forums
123: Forums
124: Forums
125: Forums
126: Forums
127: Forums
128: Forums
129: Forums
130: Forums
131: Forums
132: Your Account
133: Your Account
134: Forums
135: Forums
136: Your Account
137: Forums
138: Forums
139: Your Account
140: Forums
141: Photo Albums
142: Forums
143: Forums
144: Your Account
145: Forums
146: Forums
147: Photo Albums
148: Forums
149: Forums
150: Photo Albums
151: Forums
152: Forums
153: Forums
154: Your Account
155: Forums
156: Forums
157: Forums
158: Forums
159: Home
160: Forums
161: Forums
162: Forums
163: Your Account
164: Your Account
165: Your Account
166: Home
167: Forums
168: Forums
169: Home
170: Forums
171: Your Account
172: Forums
173: Forums
174: Home
175: Photo Albums
176: Forums
177: Your Account
178: Forums
179: Forums
180: Home
181: Forums
182: Your Account
183: Forums
184: Home
185: Forums
186: Your Account
187: Forums
188: Forums
189: Home
190: Photo Albums
191: Your Account
192: Forums
193: Forums
194: Your Account
195: Home
196: Home
197: Forums
198: Forums
199: Forums
200: Forums
201: Forums
202: Forums
203: Forums
204: Photo Albums
205: Home
206: Your Account
207: Forums
208: Forums
209: Your Account
210: Forums
211: Forums
212: Forums
213: Forums
214: Forums
215: Forums
216: Photo Albums
217: Home
218: Photo Albums
219: Your Account
220: Photo Albums
221: Forums
222: Forums
223: Forums
224: Forums
225: Forums
226: Your Account
227: Forums
228: Forums
229: Forums
230: Your Account
231: Your Account
232: Forums
233: Forums
234: Forums
235: Forums
236: Photo Albums
237: Your Account
238: Photo Albums
239: Forums
240: Forums
241: Forums
242: Your Account
243: Forums
244: Forums
245: Photo Albums
246: Forums
247: Forums
248: Photo Albums
249: Forums
250: Forums
251: Forums
252: Forums
253: Your Account
254: Home
255: Forums
256: Forums
257: Forums
258: Forums
259: Forums
260: Your Account
261: Forums
262: Forums
263: Forums
264: Your Account
265: Forums
266: Forums
267: Forums
268: Forums
269: Forums
270: Forums
271: Forums
272: Your Account
273: Forums
274: Forums
275: Photo Albums
276: Forums
277: Forums
278: Forums
279: Forums
280: Forums
281: Your Account
282: Forums
283: Forums
284: Forums
285: Photo Albums
286: Forums
287: Forums
288: Forums
289: Forums
290: Forums
291: Photo Albums
292: Forums
293: Photo Albums
294: Forums
295: Photo Albums
296: Your Account
297: Forums
298: Forums
299: Forums
300: Forums
301: Forums
302: Forums
303: Forums
304: Forums
305: Forums
306: Forums
307: Forums
308: Forums
309: Your Account
310: Forums
311: Forums
312: Forums
313: Forums
314: Your Account
315: Forums
316: Forums
317: Forums
318: Forums
319: Forums
320: Forums
321: Forums
322: Photo Albums
323: Forums
324: Forums
325: Photo Albums
326: Forums
327: Forums
328: Forums
329: Your Account
330: Forums
331: Home
332: Forums
333: Forums
334: Forums
335: Forums
336: Forums
337: Forums
338: Forums
339: Forums
340: Forums
341: Your Account
342: Forums
343: Forums
344: Photo Albums
345: Forums
346: Forums
347: Forums
348: Forums
349: Forums
350: Forums
351: Forums
352: Your Account
353: Home
354: Forums
355: Forums
356: Forums
357: Your Account
358: Forums
359: Your Account
360: Your Account
361: Forums
362: Forums
363: Forums
364: Forums
365: Forums
366: Forums
367: Home
368: Forums
369: Forums
370: Forums
371: Forums
372: Home
373: Home
374: Forums
375: Home
376: Forums
377: Home
378: Forums
379: Forums
380: Forums
381: Forums
382: Forums
383: Forums
384: Forums
385: Forums
386: Your Account
387: Photo Albums
388: Forums
389: Your Account
390: Your Account
391: Your Account
392: Forums
393: Forums
394: Forums
395: Your Account
396: Forums
397: Forums
398: Forums
399: Forums
400: Your Account
401: Photo Albums
402: Your Account
403: Forums
404: Statistics
405: Forums
406: Forums
407: Forums
408: Forums
409: Photo Albums
410: Photo Albums
411: Home
412: Forums
413: Forums
414: Your Account
415: Your Account
416: Forums
417: Forums
418: Your Account
419: Your Account
420: Home
421: Forums
422: Home
423: Forums
424: Forums
425: Forums
426: Forums
427: Forums
428: Forums
429: Your Account
430: Forums
431: Forums
432: Your Account
433: Your Account
434: Your Account
435: Forums
436: Your Account
437: Forums
438: Forums
439: Forums
440: Forums
441: Forums
442: Forums
443: Home
444: Forums
445: Forums
446: Forums
447: Forums
448: Your Account
449: Forums
450: Your Account
451: Forums
452: Photo Albums
453: News
454: Forums
455: Forums
456: Forums
457: Forums
458: Photo Albums
459: Forums
460: Forums
461: Your Account
462: Forums
463: Forums
464: Forums
465: Your Account
466: Photo Albums
467: Forums
468: Forums
469: Forums
470: Forums
471: Photo Albums
472: Forums
473: Forums
474: Forums
475: Your Account
476: Statistics
477: Photo Albums
478: Forums
479: Forums
480: Forums
481: Forums
482: Forums
483: Forums
484: Your Account
485: Forums
486: Forums
487: Forums
488: Forums
489: Your Account
490: Forums
491: Forums
492: Your Account
493: Forums
494: Forums
495: Home
496: Forums
497: Forums
498: Home
499: Forums
500: Home
501: Forums
502: Your Account
503: Forums
504: Home
505: Forums
506: Forums
507: Photo Albums
508: Forums
509: Photo Albums
510: Photo Albums
511: Forums
512: Forums
513: Forums
514: Forums
515: Forums
516: Forums
517: Forums
518: Forums
519: Your Account
520: Home
521: Forums
522: Forums
523: Forums
524: Forums
525: Photo Albums
526: Forums
527: Forums
528: Your Account
529: Forums
530: Forums
531: Forums
532: Forums
533: Forums
534: Your Account
535: Forums
536: Forums
537: Forums
538: Forums
539: Forums
540: Forums
541: Forums
542: Forums
543: Forums
544: Forums
545: Home
546: Forums
547: Home
548: Forums
549: Your Account
550: Photo Albums
551: Your Account
552: Forums
553: Forums
554: Forums
555: Forums
556: Forums
557: Statistics
558: Your Account
559: Forums
560: Forums
561: Forums
562: Forums
563: Forums
564: Your Account
565: Forums
566: Forums
567: Forums
568: Forums
569: Your Account
570: Forums
571: Forums
572: Home
573: Forums
574: Forums
575: Photo Albums
576: Photo Albums
577: Home
578: Home
579: Forums
580: Forums
581: Forums
582: Forums
583: Forums
584: Forums
585: Forums
586: Forums
587: Forums
588: Photo Albums
589: Forums
590: Forums
591: Forums
592: Forums
593: Forums
594: Forums
595: Forums
596: Forums
597: Your Account
598: Forums
599: Forums
600: Forums
601: Forums
602: Your Account
603: Forums
604: Forums
605: Home
606: Forums
607: Forums
608: Forums
609: Forums
610: Forums
611: Forums
612: Photo Albums
613: Forums
614: Forums
615: Forums
616: Forums
617: Photo Albums
618: Forums
619: Forums
620: News
621: Forums
622: Forums
623: Forums
624: Forums
625: Forums
626: Photo Albums
627: Forums
628: Forums
629: Forums
630: Photo Albums
631: Forums
632: Forums
633: Forums
634: Forums
635: Forums
636: Forums
637: Your Account
638: Forums
639: Your Account
640: Forums
641: Forums
642: Forums
643: Your Account
644: Forums
645: Photo Albums
646: Forums
647: Forums
648: Forums
649: Forums
650: Forums
651: Forums
652: Forums
653: Forums
654: Forums
655: Forums
656: Forums
657: Photo Albums
658: Forums
659: Forums
660: Forums
661: Forums
662: Forums
663: Your Account
664: Forums
665: Forums
666: Forums
667: Forums
668: Forums
669: Your Account
670: Forums
671: Your Account
672: Forums
673: Forums
674: Forums
675: Photo Albums
676: News
677: Forums
678: Forums
679: Forums
680: Forums
681: Forums
682: Forums
683: Forums
684: Forums
685: Forums
686: Home
687: Forums
688: Forums
689: Forums
690: Forums
691: Home
692: Forums
693: Photo Albums
694: Forums
695: Forums
696: Forums
697: Forums
698: Forums
699: Photo Albums
700: Forums
701: Forums
702: Photo Albums
703: Forums
704: Forums
705: Forums
706: Home
707: News
708: Forums
709: Photo Albums
710: Forums
711: Forums
712: Home
713: Forums
714: Forums
715: Home
716: Forums
717: Home
718: Forums
719: Your Account
720: Forums
721: Forums
722: Forums
723: Forums
724: Your Account
725: Your Account
726: Forums
727: Your Account
  BOT:
01: Statistics

Staff Online:

No staff members are online!
 

Coppermine Stats
Photo Albums
 Albums: 308
 Pictures: 2451
  · Views: 820725
  · Votes: 1316
  · Comments: 86
 

NSSF sues to block ATF multiple sales reporting requirements
Discussion that doesnt fit other Topics
Go to page Previous  1, 2
Post new topic   Reply to topic   Printer Friendly Page    Forum Index » General

View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Vince
Site Admin
Site Admin


Joined: May 25, 2005
Posts: 15704
Location: Brisbane AUSTRALIA

PostPosted: Fri Aug 05, 2011 10:59 pm    Post subject: Re: NSSF sues to block ATF multiple sales reporting requirements Reply with quote

Dimitri wrote:
Vince wrote:
I understand your feelings about a person's rights etc, but there are times when those rights take a back seat to the needs of society. This does not mean that their rights are taken away...that will never happen.

But who gets to say what is best for society? Especially since this is clearly related to the gun running into Mexico, of which the BATF has quite a bad record with already, knowingly allowing guns to enter Mexico.
Dimitri

I agree that the BATF has many many questions to answer and there is no doubt in my mind that they have crossed "the line" on more than one occasion. Having said that, they still need to maintain the "need to know". In this case whoever the Govt decides to conduct the investigation becomes a part of the "need to know" loop. It will not always be in the best interests of society for all of the details to become openly known.

Dimitri wrote:
Police here need detail warrants on the matter at hand to collect information on internet use for one example. And these warrants must be named to who the are investigating, and the reasons. Sure the ISP might be the only one to see that specific warrant, but the fact remains they still need a warrant.


Agree wholeheartedly...but again, this is all part of the investigation, and the investigating that has taken place prior to the issue of the warrant is not included on that Warrant...(in my part of Australia) the only place the justification for the Warrant is recorded is on the actual Application for the Warrant which remains confidential. It is the justification or grounds that the Police put in the Application for a Search Warrant that allows the authorising authority to make a decision on whether or not the Warrant can be Authorised. The Application for a Search Warrant, and the methodology and grounds it contains, remain confidential. I have proven this in Court personally.

Dimitri wrote:
Just as in the USA, for them to collect information not mentioned in any law, they need to serve each and every store a warrant, with a name of the purchaser and with the reason to search. Otherwise the rights of both the store to keep their customers information private, and the rights of the purchasers to expect their information to be kept private becomes violated.

Agree totally mate. However, as in the previous scenario, the Warrant only contains the information/items for which the Police are searching. No "methodology" or information from the investigation is included on the Warrant, only the Powers of the Police.

Dimitri wrote:
Letting people, especially governments and police forces bypass the check's and balances already in place is a very slippery slope. Irregardless if its the "best for society".

Agree totally again mate. However, the Police or Govt do not need to inform the public on the progress or content of an investigation, or even that an investigation is actually being conducted. They just need to ensure that they "tick all the boxes" and apply the "checks and balances" so that if questioned by a superior authorised authority (this could even be a citizen requesting information through Freedom of Information Legislation or someone taking legal action through the Courts in relation to the investigation) they can show that they have conducted the investigation in accordance with the Laws of the Country and that no-ones rights have been violated.

And make no bones about it mate...a Search Warrant allows Police to disrupt a person's life and go through their most private belongings in order to search for evidence of a crime...this power is not taken lightly by those who have the authority to authorise a Search Warrant, hence the need for a "need to know" loop and the inclusion of sufficient information in an Application for a Search Warrant to justify its Authorisation.

Cheers, Vince

_________________
Cheers, Vince Cheers

Illegitimi non carborundum
(Never let the bastards grind you down)

Live simply. Love generously. Care deeply. Speak kindly. Leave the rest to God.

"Nulla Si Fa Senza Volonta."
(Without Commitment, Nothing Gets Done)
Back to top
View user's profile AIM Address MSN Messenger Yahoo Messenger Photo Gallery
Elvis
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: Jul 27, 2008
Posts: 9239
Location: south island New Zealand

PostPosted: Fri Aug 05, 2011 11:19 pm    Post subject: Re: NSSF sues to block ATF multiple sales reporting requirements Reply with quote

Dimitri a local gun shop is selling large quantities of sks rifles and ammo to some customers who pay with big rolls of cash the guys ride in on harleys waering gang patches. question do you think some one should ask the question WTF is going on and investigate? or do you believe that that would be too intruding on peoples rights?
sound too far fetched. I used to work for a fella who has gang conections (they even used to dept collect for him) who now has a large gun selling franchise. this guy has no scruples and would happily rip off your granny if there was a $ in it.

_________________
You shot it You pluck it !
Them who eats the most duck eats the most feathers!
Back to top
View user's profile
Dimitri
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: Nov 25, 2005
Posts: 5944

PostPosted: Fri Aug 05, 2011 11:44 pm    Post subject: Re: NSSF sues to block ATF multiple sales reporting requirements Reply with quote

Then that local gun shop should be investigated for it Elvis, but at the same time, if the gun shop owner is selling everything "by the book". It doesn't matter what tats, patches or vehicles the people drive.

Even if they are suspected of being involved in Criminal Activity, till the police find cause to charge them, and do, they most likely have the right to buy what ever firearms they wish. I know in Canada with all our gun laws, till your actually charged and convicted for a crime, there is no law preventing you from buying guns.

Suspicion of criminal activity, and being convicted of it are 2 very different things.

Dimitri

_________________
A thousand hills, but no birds in flight, ten thousand paths, with no people's tracks. A lonely boat, a straw-hatted old man, fishing alone in the cold river snow.
Back to top
View user's profile Photo Gallery
Elvis
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: Jul 27, 2008
Posts: 9239
Location: south island New Zealand

PostPosted: Sat Aug 06, 2011 12:05 am    Post subject: Re: NSSF sues to block ATF multiple sales reporting requirements Reply with quote

we have a law here that requires you to report people buying items with large amounts of cash (to help stamp out laundering)
for the police to find cause to charge them they would have to investigate.
its a issue that could go round n round till we are all dizzy and fall over. lol

_________________
You shot it You pluck it !
Them who eats the most duck eats the most feathers!
Back to top
View user's profile
Elvis
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: Jul 27, 2008
Posts: 9239
Location: south island New Zealand

PostPosted: Sat Aug 06, 2011 12:05 am    Post subject: Re: NSSF sues to block ATF multiple sales reporting requirements Reply with quote

we have a law here that requires you to report people buying items with large amounts of cash (to help stamp out laundering)
for the police to find cause to charge them they would have to investigate.
its a issue that could go round n round till we are all dizzy and fall over. lol

_________________
You shot it You pluck it !
Them who eats the most duck eats the most feathers!
Back to top
View user's profile
Pumpkinslinger
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: Sep 22, 2007
Posts: 5001
Location: NC foothills

PostPosted: Sat Aug 06, 2011 7:58 am    Post subject: Re: NSSF sues to block ATF multiple sales reporting requirements Reply with quote

So, say my daughter gets interested in shooting the local "tactical match". Not having the appropriate guns I head over to the local gun shop and buy two rifles and two handguns. The gun shop owner is required to report this to the ATF. Then the ATF investigates me to discover that I bought the guns to shoot a match. Wasted time, effort and money for the gun shop owner and the ATF, not to mention a possible hassle for me. Now repeat thousands of times a year...

Having heard far too many stories of ATF abuses over the years I sure am NOT interested in giving them excuses for any more.

_________________
Mike

"I ain't no better than anybody else, and there ain't nobody better than me!" Ma Kettle
Back to top
View user's profile AIM Address Yahoo Messenger Photo Gallery
inthedark
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: Jan 31, 2011
Posts: 913
Location: Ontario

PostPosted: Sat Aug 06, 2011 12:57 pm    Post subject: Re: NSSF sues to block ATF multiple sales reporting requirements Reply with quote

Pumpkinslinger wrote:
So, say my daughter gets interested in shooting the local "tactical match". Not having the appropriate guns I head over to the local gun shop and buy two rifles and two handguns. The gun shop owner is required to report this to the ATF. Then the ATF investigates me to discover that I bought the guns to shoot a match. Wasted time, effort and money for the gun shop owner and the ATF, not to mention a possible hassle for me. Now repeat thousands of times a year...

Having heard far too many stories of ATF abuses over the years I sure am NOT interested in giving them excuses for any more.

First for VINCE "BZ" .

Production orders are used in both USA, Canada,UK, and Australia/NZ (call it a different name but is for the same purpose ).

There is always going to be improper proceedure by officers that is either deliberate or undeliberate. Either way they are usually called on it by supervisors or the court or by citizens making complaints. 99% of complaints against officers is unfounded, but everyone knows about the 1%. Officers that don't follow the rules are usually fired as police departments can not afford the "bringing the carriage of justice into disrepute" and the lawsuits that follow.
In this case with NSSF vs BATF, I am in total agreement with the lawsuit.

(READ- I FINALLY WENT TO THE HOTLINK TO READ THE LAWSUIT AND THE FOLLOW UP. I SHOULD HAVE DONE THAT FIRST)
That being said, every point that I made was correct.

Dimitri - do yourself a favour and buy a book called "The Police Manual of Arrest, Seizure & Interrogation" by Roger E. Salhany ISBN 0-459-55507-3 and educate yourself, THEN you can ask a question from the point of some knowledge and not ignorance. If this sounds harsh, it was ment to be, because you need to be told.

The fact is, that most people never know that they may be the subject of an investigation unless there is criminal activity for which they may be charged. And for the number of investigations that are ongoing at any one time is staggering.
Back to top
View user's profile Photo Gallery
Vince
Site Admin
Site Admin


Joined: May 25, 2005
Posts: 15704
Location: Brisbane AUSTRALIA

PostPosted: Sun Aug 07, 2011 7:40 am    Post subject: Re: NSSF sues to block ATF multiple sales reporting requirements Reply with quote

I received this today from a mate in the USA.


Fierce Battle Over Gun Rights

Obama Justice Department Orders Gun Registration:
Wayne LaPierre Denounced Action and Unveils NRA Lawsuit ...


Watch here, Watch Now!

Fierce Battle Over Gun Rights

Cheers, Vince

_________________
Cheers, Vince Cheers

Illegitimi non carborundum
(Never let the bastards grind you down)

Live simply. Love generously. Care deeply. Speak kindly. Leave the rest to God.

"Nulla Si Fa Senza Volonta."
(Without Commitment, Nothing Gets Done)
Back to top
View user's profile AIM Address MSN Messenger Yahoo Messenger Photo Gallery
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic   Printer Friendly Page    Forum Index » General
Page 2 of 2
All times are GMT - 7 Hours
Go to page Previous  1, 2



Jump to:  


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum


Valid CSS! Valid HTML 4.01!
Click to check if this page is realy HTML 4.01 compliant for speed :)

All logos and trademarks in this site are property of HuntingNut.com.
The comments are property of their posters, all the rest © 2011 by HuntingNut.com
Interactive software released under GNU GPL, Code Credits, Privacy Policy

.: Upgraded to DragonFly 9.2 by *Dizfunkshunal* :.