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Local school arming cops with AR15's
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DallanC
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 25, 2014 9:40 am    Post subject: Local school arming cops with AR15's Reply with quote

A local school district near me has decided to arm their school police with AR15's. Its a great idea I'm fully in support of. Years back we had a guy try to cause a mass shooting in a Mall here, he was stopped by a armed person. Counterforce DOES work, and quicker than waiting for the police to show up.

I love my state. Smile I hope this expands to neighboring districts.

www.nbcnews.com/news/u...ict-n37921


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1895ss
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 25, 2014 10:30 pm    Post subject: Re: Local school arming cops with AR15's Reply with quote

Alright, sounds OK to me........ Smile
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Elvis
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 26, 2014 1:08 am    Post subject: Re: Local school arming cops with AR15's Reply with quote

good on them.

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dhc4ever
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 26, 2014 2:39 pm    Post subject: Re: Local school arming cops with AR15's Reply with quote

All well and good, how much quick reaction and marksmanship training do these guys get?
A constant state of readiness and competancy is very hard to maintain.
Hopefully not a case of all the gear,no idea.

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gelandangan
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 26, 2014 2:41 pm    Post subject: Re: Local school arming cops with AR15's Reply with quote

While I am glad to have the kids protected with adequate firepower, I am in the same time sad that this measure is necessary in the first place.
There are a lot of sick people that ought to be culled out from society.

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Loke
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 26, 2014 2:59 pm    Post subject: Re: Local school arming cops with AR15's Reply with quote

If all of the cops in that particular school district are like the one that I once worked with, well, they would be better off arming the custodian. It is appalling that society has digressed to the point that we NEED armed security in our schools. But then again, when I was a student, most of the guys that I associated with, had a rifle or shotgun hanging on the rack in the back window of their truck. And left it unlocked, with the keys in the ignition.
By the way, all of the officers I know in both my local jurisdiction, and the one where I work have carried an AR15 or its equivalent for as long as I can remember. I'm quite sure that most law enforcement jurisdictions have made them available to their officers since the shoot out with the bank robbers in California in the 1990's. I'm not sure why this story I worthy of national attention.
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Ominivision1
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 26, 2014 3:33 pm    Post subject: Re: Local school arming cops with AR15's Reply with quote

I agree Loke, back in the 1960's I always walked to my favorite hunting ground 1 mile away. No body said anything about a 12 year boy carting his shotgun/rifle to the woods. In fact after hunting I would pass off squirrels and rabbits to the neighbors and they would invite me in for pie or dinner.

Now a days you would have a swat team and than some on you.

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Vince
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 26, 2014 5:37 pm    Post subject: Re: Local school arming cops with AR15's Reply with quote

It is terrible that they feel the need to firstly have Police in schools, and secondly arm them with AR15s. I think that the need for this stems from failings within society and Govt policies. The biggest problem I can see, in many countries, is the multi ethnicity of the societies.

The different ethnic/racial groups all have different values and ideals. They have different levels of care about human life and the values of their adoptive society...hence the formation of ethnic gangs that have no care or thought for the laws of the land. These values also contribute to the biggest problems in schools worldwide...bullying.

I fear it is too late to do anything about this particular problem because the different ethnic groups are firmly ensconced in the populations and are generations old, even though they retain the old ethnic values.

Back to the AR15s...I am thinking that an AR15 in .223Rem is too much gun. The possibility of over penetration is a real problem that will need to be addressed to avoid innocent woundings.

Pete also raised another very important consideration...the training of those who will be carrying the AR15s in the schools. Without extensive training and regular practice there is potential for big problems.

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Suzanne
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 26, 2014 7:31 pm    Post subject: Re: Local school arming cops with AR15's Reply with quote

HHHhmmmmm....I'm thinkin with you Vinnie, it's too much of the wrong caliber of firepower. Maybe it's more of a visual deterrent they're looking for, because as you said, those are going through walls and collateral damage should be the most important issue with loads of kids around.

Ethnicity is a subject I should know about, but I've never lived in a big city where there are ethnic neighborhoods that don't get along. I mean at least to the point of armed violence. The things we hear in the media about gang violence seems to be a norm that we've decided to take for granted. It seems to be normal to have shootings in poor ethnic neighborhoods and actually expected. They send the police in after a shooting and sort of make attempts at rounding up the criminals but for some reason it's not much of a media boondoggle to highlight that. It's more important and more of a pressing situation than occasional mass murders. They happen constantly every day of the week but the media is only going for top billing, they're only going to show the out-of-the-ordinary headliners and so that's our view of the situation, and they make up our minds that school shootings, theater shootings and other mass shootings are more important and more pressing than the daily violence in our bigger cities.

I wouldn't live in a big city and have had lots of chances to, with good brothers and sisters living in big cities, but they have stories to tell that make me wonder why they would choose to. They make much better pay than I do, but have a ton more risk in their daily lives than they admit.

I don't know where I'm going with this....I guess to say that the ethnicity thing is mostly bigger cities...but I dunno... The backlash lately in our society (to me at least) is because of our recent politically correct ideas of making everyone abstain from language that might be offensive to someone. That in itself is racist and leads to identity magnification that wasn't there before. We pretty much had things sorted out with a great blending of our nation's ethnicity without being overly conditioned into remembering one's origin or someone's ethnic background. Now we have to think about it, consider it and play the game accordingly. Which only brings out what was formerly in a blind eye.

I liked it better when we had that blind eye and ignored our ethnicity as a blending of our nation's people. When we were Americans, but what are we now called? Such and such American... some hyphenated sort of American that ties us with our ancestry. Maybe it's a proud announcement but it's a dividing factor that I think should be avoided if we are true Americans, as that would be the definition of American. If your ancestry is more important than being an American and you need to say so first of all then maybe you live in the wrong country of your pride. A proud American should be proud to say they are an American. Yes we are a blend of peoples but that is our pride and that is our definition, we are Americans.

This politically correct stuff was aimed at dividing us and so far it has won.


Suz

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Loke
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 26, 2014 8:05 pm    Post subject: Re: Local school arming cops with AR15's Reply with quote

I do not believe that ethnicity is the problem. I do believe that intolerance is. I believe that eroding morals in all of our societies is a huge problem. People want to make poor choices, and be free from any consequence of those choices. There are consequences for every choice, positive or negative.
Back to the subject, in a school building, the 223 is probably the best caliber choice to prevent over penetration. This is, of course, dependent on bullet choice. A bullet that expands and fragments like a V-Max would be ideal in my mind. It would also have the velocity necessary to penetrate soft body armor, and accurate enough to make a precise shot the length of the building if needed. In my school a hundred yard gun is all that is needed. Fire codes also require that there be a fire wall between each classroom. Earthquake codes require that they are reinforced masonry, which is impervious to 223 bullets.
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DallanC
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 26, 2014 8:53 pm    Post subject: Re: Local school arming cops with AR15's Reply with quote

Interesting comments, couple thoughts.

I went to the same High school as Loke and had a shotgun in my truck at school in the mid 80's, hunting pheasants on the way to from school. We had police in the school AFAIK, since the late 70's (my sister was there in '78-79). More for drugs and whatnot I'd guess... violence or safety wasn't an issue at all. Guns among students was no big deal (in the parking lot anyway), most people hunted it seemed and everyone was let out over deer hunt weekend.

Its a sad state of things that we have to concern ourselves with protecting our children from monsters who are hell bent on causing as much death and destruction as possible, only to be immortalized by our 24/7 media coverage.

I really doubt school officers will be packing a AR down the hallways during school hours, but having them on site in a first response locker? You betcha.

.223 probably is not the best choice, but it can certainly pin down a assailant until the police arrive, after all that's what happened in the Trolly Square shootings a while back.

Finally the ethnicity thing Suz brings up: I agree that it really shouldn't matter anymore.

Loke's final comment hits pretty close to the mark with the eroding morals and lack of accountability. We're headed to hell in a hand basket my day always said growing up, its shocking how far down that path we've gone.


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Loke
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 26, 2014 9:02 pm    Post subject: Re: Local school arming cops with AR15's Reply with quote

Please indulge me while I revisit the ethnicity factor. When we credit our behavior to our ethnicity, we discredit our own ability to control our own actions. I could have blamed my alcoholic years on my Irish and Scotch ancestry. Or I could attribute my behavior to the fact that I enjoyed being drunk. Ultimately the choice was mine.

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Pumpkinslinger
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 26, 2014 9:38 pm    Post subject: Re: Local school arming cops with AR15's Reply with quote

Regarding the .223... Remember that "they" have a choice of ammo. A light HP or even something like a "Varmint Grenade" would probably serve the purpose and reduce chances of "over penetration".

As for the need for these guns, the problem is the culture. Now certain ethnic groups that clump together may tend to develop a certain culture, as every neighborhood does, but if you raised someone from a different ethnic group in that same neighborhood they'd follow the same culture. I always say that it is not color but culture that is the problem.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 26, 2014 11:07 pm    Post subject: Re: Local school arming cops with AR15's Reply with quote

Tolerance of the wrong things and intolerance in the wrong areas is a contributing factor in this "need" for guns in school. When I was in school if I misbehaved I got instant corporal feedback. In high school the vice principal could knock you on your behind or if your were not threatening use a shaved baseball bat on your behind. When I got home I got a belt across the backside just in case the vice principal was too lenient.

Now the staff can't touch little Johnny and mommy raises hell because the school took away his recess privileges just because he was "bullied" into beat the crap out of those smaller kids for their lunch money. Parents don't punish bad behavior and the school is not allowed to so as long as kids can get away with poor choices they just get worse and worse. Then there is the instant classification of "mental illness" for unruly kids and they are put on drugs that can't be stopped without careful withdrawal to prevent rage and suicidal thoughts and actions. So now little Johnny is drugged until he can't function and when he stops taking the drugs he becomes a raging maniac.

It is funny how in just a few generations there are so many kids on antidepressants when for a century before we used discipline to teach our kids to behave. Just more ways to take the parenting out of being a parent and give the state the job of teaching values to kids that they should learn at home before they ever start school.

I think that AR's in the schools is a sad testament to the state of parenting and our educational system but it is better than waiting for the cops to show up to stop a maniacal person who is systematically killing kids. They might never have to be used but if they are you can bet it will only be once.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 27, 2014 7:12 am    Post subject: Re: Local school arming cops with AR15's Reply with quote

All very valid points and fair opinions from everyone.

I think that I am drawing on the occurrences that are taking place in Australia now...mainly Sydney. These "occurrences" are mostly caused by one particular ethnic group who are attempting to take over the drug business from bikies. I agree that ethnicity shouldn't make a difference, but it is a sad fact of life that different cultures/ethnic groups put a different value on human life. As for the gang culture...peer pressure on those who would otherwise be good kids, forces them into doing things that are way beyond what they would have every thought of doing.

As for the .223...again, valid arguments, especially from Loke and Punkin...different bullets would make all the difference.

The schools in the US are obviously bigger than those out here in Oz, so I didn't really consider that a shot could be needed over 100 yards. Also, I was not aware of the physical construction of the school walls. Out here, they are usually not much more than gyprock (I think you guys call it drywall) reinforced by timber framework, so a .223 would smoke on through more than a couple of classrooms. Of course outdoors you could "find" a 100 yard shot fairly easily.

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