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45-70 I'm having a DUH moment ?
Discussion regarding the reloading of ammunition and tuning of loads for accuracy
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pete4d
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2019 7:54 am    Post subject: 45-70 I'm having a DUH moment ? Reply with quote

After reading all the 45-70 articles and comments here

Went out a few days ago and shot these ,50-yd groups , My question is "DUH "does the B.C. change this much , haven't measured the difference on space of the bullet set-back from the lands . Used the same seating die setting. But from Horizontal to Vertical strings , I'M having A head scratching Scratch moment ?

Number 1-group,,,,,,, 405-gr. cast(store bought)fouling shots , started to group after the 3rd shot number 7 ,may have pulled off. Scratch



Number 2-group,,,,,,,, The Horizontal string , I started casting these 500-gr bullets a couple months ago . I started out just shooting for groups.



Number 3-group,,,,,,Vertical strings , Now my question after adjusting sights and changing the pointed bullet too the flat pointed bullet (same bullet just while in the lube sizer I use a flat bar to flatten the tip) . Scratch

,,,,Why did it go from Horizontal to Vertical strings ? Scratch



Number 4-group,,,,, Changed powders Hodgdon- triple 777 500-gr pointed
not the best grouping Embarassed Scratch



Number 5-group,,,, Went back with 500-gr flatted point and the BlackHorn 209 powder . After about 30 shots the fouling was starting to put them into larger groups . And besides my old shoulder was started to hurt. She does kick just a little



All these bullets a Bn Hardnes of 11 (pencil lead test) . They are on the softer side. Sniper Bang Head Censored
Cheers Cheers Very Happy Sniper Cheers

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Vince
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2019 3:12 pm    Post subject: Re: 45-70 I'm having a DUH moment ? Reply with quote

I’d up the hardness to around 15 to 18 mate...then adjust the load accordingly.

I’ve always been told that vertical stringing was due to incorrect “breathing” by the shooter...horizontal stringing...I don’t really know.

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gelandangan
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2019 3:54 pm    Post subject: Re: 45-70 I'm having a DUH moment ? Reply with quote

I use 45.3 grains of AR2206H on 500 grains Mihec mold and getting about 12.50 fps with accuracy good enough to snipe rabbits.
I find that the harder I push the boolits the less accurate it become.
My boolits lead are about 14 bhn with pencil test.

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Elvis
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2019 5:22 pm    Post subject: Re: 45-70 I'm having a DUH moment ? Reply with quote

45 of 2206h behind a 413 or 395 does it for me and they not hard on body of shooter...maybe back your load off a tad and see what happens...having the snot kicked out of a fella doesnt do wonderful things for group size.

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pete4d
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2019 8:09 pm    Post subject: Re: 45-70 I'm having a DUH moment ? Reply with quote

thanks for the comments and input ,,, this is almost like a math problem where you keep making the same mistake over and over .

Remember this is a Scratch
Springfield trapdoor ,,,so I have too keep my pressure down to the 18-19,000 psi ,,, thanks

Just doesn't add up on the sudden change from horizontal to vertical ? I'm missing something Cheers

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When the SHTF I'm gonna hunker down until all those idiots kill each other.

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Last edited by pete4d on Thu Feb 07, 2019 10:35 am; edited 1 time in total
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Elvis
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2019 10:47 pm    Post subject: Re: 45-70 I'm having a DUH moment ? Reply with quote

the bulls eye......
are the bases of the projectiles nice and tidy???? they tell me it is vital with BP so could be issue in the old case maybe...
45 of 2208 should be around 1500fps ADI website will have pressure levels,it bugged me as they were MUCH lower than trailboss


www.adi-powders.com.au...or-rifles/

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Aloysius
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2019 2:30 am    Post subject: Re: 45-70 I'm having a DUH moment ? Reply with quote

What kind of grease are you using on your bullets? The stuff used for smokeless powder is not good for black powder...
And when fouling is a problem: try to add a greased overpowder wad. I use a beer-card (the one they put under your glass), dip it in molten grease and afterwards punch the right size to fit between BP and bullet. And when this doesn't solve the problem: add 1/4" BP-bullet-grease between that waxed card and the bullet. You're going to be amazed how much rounds you can fire without cleaning...
(so inside the case you have on the bottom blackpowder, then a waxed card, then about 5 mm or 1/4" BP-bullet-grease and then the bullet)

When you read the manuals you will see that Lee's ALOX is not suitable to be used for blackpowder. Same thing could be said about this hard bullet grease that's used for smokeless-powder. They don't keep the blackpowder-fouling soft => no one can predict anything when hard stuff is sticked into your barrel.

Hope you understand what I wanted to explain because I have the feeling that my head is not thinking in the right English at this moment. Sorry.
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slimjim
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2019 4:30 am    Post subject: Re: 45-70 I'm having a DUH moment ? Reply with quote

Have you considered H4895? This smokeless powder has less pressure that Trailboss or Blackpowder with superior velocities. My accuracy has been good.

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pete4d
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2019 7:32 am    Post subject: Re: 45-70 I'm having a DUH moment ? Reply with quote

slimjim wrote:
Have you considered H4895? This smokeless powder has less pressure that Trailboss or Blackpowder with superior velocities. My accuracy has been good.


Yes I've tried The H-4895 , trail Boss ,H-777 , Pyrodex 77 , even some of the old Black powder FF is what I shot years ago . I'm getting better groups with the BlackHorn 209 and it's not as messy ,easy clean up . All my loads were with a 1/2-inch dry fiber wad .
Every few shots (habit) from black powder days . Take a short piece of sight tube and blow down the barrel while the fouling is still soft .

As for the lube I'm using this as a base mix , I make mine with less STP , grease and ATF , His recipe is a little to soft for me .

Bens Red
-- 24 oz-----wax
. -- 4.6 oz----Johnson paste wax
. -- 14 oz-----Lucus red & tacky grease
. --5.3 oz ----STP oil treatment
. --5.3 oz-----ATF transmission fluid

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pete4d
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2019 7:52 am    Post subject: Re: 45-70 I'm having a DUH moment ? Reply with quote

Aloysius wrote:


When you read the manuals you will see that Lee's ALOX is not suitable to be used for blackpowder. Same thing could be said about this hard bullet grease that's used for smokeless-powder. They don't keep the blackpowder-fouling soft => no one can predict anything when hard stuff is sticked into your barrel.

Hope you understand what I wanted to explain because I have the feeling that my head is not thinking in the right English at this moment. Sorry.

I tried the ALOX before wasn't all that impressed with it with the 45-70 cast , works OK with some of my 30 & 312 cast they don't have large grooves . The 405 (store bought) cast has a harder wax than what I like . So not to sure going that route will help, they shoot 3.5-4-inch groups no matter what I've tried ?
As for the greased wads mite have try that , just need to cast up more bullets first and try it.
Cheers Waiting on more help Popcorn Cheers Scratch

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"march to the sound of the guns and shoot everyone not dressed like you"--D I 1968

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pete4d
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2019 8:04 am    Post subject: Re: 45-70 I'm having a DUH moment ? Reply with quote

Should have included this about the Black Horn 209 ,it's a black power substitute not a black powder.
www.chuckhawks.com/bla..._flash.htm

The more I use it the more I like it. Cheers

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pete4d
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2019 11:02 am    Post subject: Re: 45-70 I'm having a DUH moment ? Reply with quote

Elvis wrote:
the bulls eye......
are the bases of the projectiles nice and tidy???? they tell me it is vital with BP so could be issue in the old case maybe...
45 of 2206h should be around 1500fps ADI website will have pressure levels,it bugged me as they were MUCH lower than trailboss


www.adi-powders.com.au...or-rifles/

As for the base of the bullet , yes I've run into that too over years in the lyman lube sizer the wax will build up on the sizer-rod and cause the base to be uneven (won't stand up straight). This issue seems to be more on the shape of the bullet (Flat over Pointed)than on the powder loading data. Scratch Never had any other bullets go from vertical to horizontal like this. Scratch

I try to keep all my loads to the minimum (lower side) on the powders. longer case life if do this. Some of these case are only on their second and third load.
OOPS,,, meant to add one reason for the hurt soreness is I had a rotater cup in right shoulder worked on 2-yrs ago old injury (horse 50+ yrs ago)

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"march to the sound of the guns and shoot everyone not dressed like you"--D I 1968

When the SHTF I'm gonna hunker down until all those idiots kill each other.

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gelandangan
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2019 2:24 pm    Post subject: Re: 45-70 I'm having a DUH moment ? Reply with quote

I found that Bens Red lube is great for pistol loads, but in 45/70 my preference is a mix of 1 part of Synthetic ATF, 2 parts of beeswax and 1 part of carnauba wax .

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The government I trust .. is my .45-70 Government.

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pete4d
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2019 4:11 pm    Post subject: Re: 45-70 I'm having a DUH moment ? Reply with quote

gelandangan wrote:
I found that Bens Red lube is great for pistol loads, but in 45/70 my preference is a mix of 1 part of Synthetic ATF, 2 parts of beeswax and 1 part of carnauba wax .

Haven't tried in a pistol , but did find it messy as hell just to handle. To thin is why I cut back on the grease and oils. And the store bought 405-gr wax is hard enough you have to dig your finger nail into, has to be for the higher speed loads. Just not for the 1000-to-1200 fps loads. Always thought of maybe melting the wax out and using my thinner lube . Never have liked the groups I got out of them , no matter what powder I used.
I'll have to try yours next time I melt wax Cheers

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"march to the sound of the guns and shoot everyone not dressed like you"--D I 1968

When the SHTF I'm gonna hunker down until all those idiots kill each other.

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Vince
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2019 8:32 pm    Post subject: Re: 45-70 I'm having a DUH moment ? Reply with quote

gelandangan wrote:
I found that Bens Red lube is great for pistol loads, but in 45/70 my preference is a mix of 1 part of Synthetic ATF, 2 parts of beeswax and 1 part of carnauba wax .

This is pretty much the same lube I’ve made for years for both pistol and rifle...the only difference is I don’t put in the canauba wax.

Pete, if you find this lube is too messy, you can adjust the lube from almost liquid to hard as buggery by altering the amount of ATF you add to the wax. I haven’t made any for some time so I can’t remember the quantities, but I would check each batch by scooping out a teaspoon full and letting it set, then squashing/rubbing it between my fingers to see how soft it was. Best part is it doesn’t get greasy...just waxy.

Regarding the hardness of cast bullets and reduced power loads, I harken back to Robert Lee's book for developing reduced loads using cast bullets...match your alloy to the powder and load and you can have all sorts of fun. So long as you know the BHN # of your alloy bullet, you can develop a load for different powders by applying Lee's principles.

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Live simply. Love generously. Care deeply. Speak kindly. Leave the rest to God.

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