Here's another example of us screwing with them. This not only works out badly for the elk, once their population diminishes below the sustenance threshold for the wolf population, the wolves turn to alternate sources. Livestock, pets and other hapless animal species are then targeted by the wolves (hey... they gotta eat). Then the wolves, revered in the restocking effort, become a threat, a nuisance and an embarrassment to shortsited enviornmemtalists and thus are then eradicated by whatever means.

news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20...es_and_elk

There is X amount of dirt, Y amount of animals and Z amount of humans. When X is divided by Z... Y loses... every time.

And the Predator Zoo in Branson MO. (I think) just had two timber wolves escape. A male and a pregnant female. That ought to help the environment in cattle and horse country...Loadin' up the .30-30...

Oh.....oh, open season on a couple of wolves I'd say.

...now just a few scant years after reintroduction of the cayote here, farmers are loosing sheep, lambs, and pets to predation. Predatory species require renewable or sustainable resources. I don't think the 'wild' acerage necessary is thought out nearly well enough when these programs are initiated. I don't want to see us loose a single animal species... but I don't agree with some of the trade offs.

When politicians become envolved and cater to 'enviornmentalist' groups, the most wonderful programs you ever heard are laid out... on paper. I have yet to see a 'paper trained' cayote or wolf in the wild.

Hmmm.... I live in an area that has all the big predators. Wolves, cougars, bears(both Blacks and Griz), coyotes, wolverines, lynx and a few others. Ranchers here all loose a few animals to them every year. Most of us consider it as part of living here. They were here before us, we took their habitat and changed it to suit us, if they're adaptation to survive as a species is to take a few sheep and calves, so be it.

There is an island in the middle of the St. Lawrence River that had a population of moose living on it. Every winter the dept of wildlife had to go and feed the moose cause of over grazing. One very cold winter, I believe back in the 60's, a couple of small packs of wolves managed to get out to the island. People freaked out and said that all the moose would be killed of by the wolves and that the wolves should be hunted down and killed. The Dept of Wildlife said no, the wolves made it out there on their own and monitored the situation. Within a couple of years the moose population stabilized, no more winter feeding was necessary, and the wolf population remained at the two small packs and a couple of loners.

I know this isn't exactly the same situation, but nature has a way of stabilizing things if we let it. We killed off the wolves in the first place, let them come back and a few sheep and cattle are a small price to pay. The wolves will not wipe out the elk or deer populations.

I agree with you Grant. It's when, in order to eat, wild animals encroach into populated areas and then are unceremoniously slaughtered as nuisances that I have a problem with reintroduction of species where 'natural' elimination has already removed them from the equation.

I key on your phrase... "but nature has a way of stabalizing things if we let it."

I'll make two points. 1.We don't let it.

2.Are the ranchers you speak of 'letting it' by "loosing a few animals to them each year?" Here, sustenance feeding is frowned upon by management agencies and naturalists alike. (Yes I do have up feeders for the birds and squirrels).

There is unquestionably more 'free range' available in your area than here in the populated 'east'. I have no quarrel with the animals, only with the organizations that 'mis'manage them.

A 'trash can' bear was not created as a trash can bear. He has evolved, or simply followed his nose. If he becomes dependant on this lifestyle, more than likely he will be put down at some point. Some are relocated, many are not.

Ranchers here don't so much "let it" happen. Like right now in calving season, the ranchers are up all night making sure the calves don't freeze or taken by predators. Ranchers here just seem to expect that they will loose a few animals every year to predators. Kinda goes with the territory if you will. I know I don't leave any of my critters out at night cause the cats or coyotes in the area would make short work of them. Mind you the coyote pack doesn't seem to come around too often after my Akita killed a couple of them, but I am always worried that a cougar will come in. If wolves are reintroduced in your area, people just have to learn to take a few precautions and learn to limit the reasons the wolves would come in is all. Don't leave Fluffy the poodle out at night and so on. People just have to realize they can't do things the same anymore and adapt themselves.

I just feel that we are encroaching on them far more than they do on us. We take more and more of their habitat every year, then we get pissed when they come looking for food. I don't think we have the right to pick and choose what wild critters we have around us. Yes we like the deer and elk and moose cause we hunt them for food, but as we've always done, we eliminate the competition by killing off the other predators. I think putting them back is a good thing even with the few problems that may arise. They reintroduced Elk in my area, the ranchers are far more pissed about that than any wolf, bear or coyote could ever make them.

Evening Grant... I'm trying very hard to agree with you... if you'll just let me. Your second paragraph there echos my feelings almost exactly. I feel it is the right and proper attitude... all I'm saying is ... it doesn't happen the way good folks want it to. When game and habitat are managed like strawberries or soybean, where profit is the motivation (through permit sales or votes from radicals) the animals untimately loose.

I agree 100% that wildlife is getting shafted. I agree that more and more habitat is being 'stolen' for shopping malls and parking lots. My point is, in the big picture, as enviornment diminishes, encounters between humans and animals will rise proportionately. When human greed goes against animal need... well lets just say I have a dim view of the outcome.

I truely respect your passion here. I can honestly say I wish the world were full of fellers just like you.

AMEN to that!!! Lets tear down half of those stupid malls that are only built by the greedy bastards that are trying to take away our hunting rights. Like there isn't enough places to go to spend our hard earned money already.

I guess it is harder to envision the situation down in the states where the reintroductions are going on when I look around at where I live. I mean, I have deer and black bears that hang around in front of the Napa Auto parts I work at. I leave my house and drive into the bush and rarely see another human or house for a couple hundred kilometers. The main point I'm trying to make is that the people that want to see the wolves and such reintroduced are also the ones that will bitch when they're poodle fluffy goes missing.

I understand your point about the way animal's are managed, or lack there of. I think instead of trying to stop the reintroductions, people in those areas should be pushing for a change in the way the resource is looked after. Here in BC, we started getting pissed at the way the inland fisheries were being looked after. After several years of pushing government, we got one of our own in as the head of the freshwater fishery. He's a biologist, fly fishing writer and lecturer, and most importantly, a fly fisherman. His name is Brian Chan and now looks after all money's raised via fishing licences for habitat enhancement. He's also heads the stocking programs and the regulations. Now our fishery is on it's way to where is was and very quickly I might add. People need to push back at the people mismanaging your flora and fauna. Your right, animals can't be managed like strawberries, but people have to have a little live and let live when it comes to the encounters between people and critters.

d_hoffman wrote:

AMEN to that!!! Lets tear down half of those stupid malls that are only built by the greedy bastards that are trying to take away our hunting rights. Like there isn't enough places to go to spend our hard earned money already.

Boy, I hear ya on this !
OK, I'll let the Indian in me come out "The greedy white eyes".
A LOT of farmland around Modesto,Kaleeforina,is being lost to....Target stores,more shopping malls,a lot more restaurants,besides Taco Bell, and Mickey D's. AND, upteen houses being built. Scads of them.
Farmers, and ranchers being bought out by developers, for a tidy sum.
The near same thing with real estate people.Don't they have enough money already ?
I have seen the times comming.But when ? The seasons would go from 7 to 10 weeks straight,no days off.56 hours per week.Some seasons were shorter than others.Due to the weather conditions,affecting crop outlook.
Last year, our cannery permanently closed.Seneca Foods decided that
"There's not enough peaches for both plants to operate.".
IF those high-ups in Seneca,were shown that those up rooted trees,were being re-planted, the out come would still be the same ?
One boss,I talked to in October,said he gives Signature Fruit Company,Plant 7 to close in about 2 years.
A few of us were called back to work.Our job was to remove the peach pitters and re-pitters.These machines are owned by Atlas Pacific Engineering Company. I've worked on those machines for over 14 years.
We removed those machines,in roughly 2 weeks.
My last day was October 20,2006.
The official closing, October 30,2006.
Since this was a forced retirement 24-25 years,my paperwork was filled out.
So, now,being re-trained as an electrician.
I hope,in 5 to 6 years,I can get out of this state.Aiming for Arizona.
You guys hang in there.

I escaped the USSR of Cal about 7 months ago. Was down Santa Paula near Ventura. Man what a mess that place is...

Hi Bushy !
How's MO ?
Sorta miss that state.Was born in Independence,not far from Kansas City.
For Arizona,have 6 people that want us to move there.Nice people.
On the news several days ago,there was talk about "illegal guns".
And then, get this, you can call a hotline for illegal guns. You may be offered a reward of up to $1,000.00. The news shown a table of illegal guns.
What's scary, is many would call even if the gun wasn't "illegal".
Talk about the KGB, and Nazi era wanna be snoops ! Makes you not want to trust anyone. Especially in this gun-a-phobic state.
People are getting conditioned to be afraid of guns.
Does my original 1884 Springfield Trap Door,qualify as illegal ? I mean,some are deathly afraid of any gun, and ready to make that call.
Any more, there's always nosey neighbors.
See ya Bushy !

Hey Grant... I glad to hear you have at least on person working FOR the enviornment. It's sort of like put and take trout here. I would be happier if they worked on one stream at a time to improve water quality to where it would sustain a trout population. I would feel better about my license fee.

4570Ranger... It sounds as though you're losing out to big buisness and government in a big way. I remember well the government subsidies and pay offs to farmers to STOP growing crops. Now only those big companies you mentioned and more like them can AFFORD to grow the staples we need. Farming in this country has dropped to below 2% of the people feeding the other 98%.

Bushmaster... I won't stir the pot about Calilfornia... there's good folks here on the site I imagine still living there. I do understand your frustration and am glad you were able to get to a place where you are happier.

4rum, evedently the bushmaster ain't been up in nrthern cal, we take care of our idiots and put em where they belong HaHaHaDave. ps. i'm back,my net was down since last thursday. I hope nobody missed me!