why ??????

chambered221 · Posted: Sun Nov 19, 2017 10:00 am Post subject: Re: why ??????

I'm betting you've got a resizing issue not a gun issue !!!

Calipers/micrometer and a headspace gauge will tell the tale !!!

Aloysius · Posted: Sun Nov 19, 2017 10:35 am Post subject: Re: why ??????

When your brass is soft and the neck is small, it's possible that you open up the cartridge on its shoulder, making it hard to fit in the chamber.
Measure the diameter of the shoulder before and after seating the bullet.

(just trying to add an extra possibility. Because if that's the case, changing anything on the dies won't help. Reaming you neck could be the solution)

English Mike · Posted: Sun Nov 19, 2017 3:29 pm Post subject: Re: why ??????

If that's the case, why is the fired brass taking so much effort to resize?
Have dimensions of factory ammunition & reloads been compared?

Loke · Member Joined: May 13, 2013 Posts: 207

I have heard of issues with PPU brass being really hard to resize. It is really hard, and has a tendency to spring back a bit after resizing so they are hard to chamber after reloading.

Bushmaster · Posted: Sun Nov 19, 2017 9:46 pm Post subject: Re: why ??????

Loke...I haven't had any problems with PPU cases in .308 and I load a lot of them for my "ugly" rifle.

I use a Lee Single stage cast iron "O" press for resizing and priming all my cases, both handgun and rifle.

Aloysius · Posted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 2:52 am Post subject: Re: why ??????

English Mike wrote:

If that's the case, why is the fired brass taking so much effort to resize?
Have dimensions of factory ammunition & reloads been compared?

because the inside diameter of the neck is rather small?

It's not so easy to think about things you don't see yourself. Think about how much things you do and control at the same time even without paying attention to it (example: put a new primer in, feel how much power is needed, feel with your finger to check that the primer is level while you put the brass back in the tray... and I'm sure I forget lots of things as check if the primer is not upside down, even check next primer in your primer-seater, check that the lid of the handprimerseater is still closed... and they say that men can only do 1 thing at the same time, where women can do several tasks at the same time...)

Dawgdad · Posted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 9:21 am Post subject: Re: why ??????

I would check headspace. With some brass and not all brass stretching excessivley sounds like the bolt is not consistently holding the locked position when firing.

A small base die would probably fix the symptoms but you really should look at the cause. I have never taken a BLR apart but by looking at a schematic I would look for wear on the engagement surface of the fine gears of the lever and the small sprocket on the main gear that engages the bolt.

If that is jumping a tooth intermittently due to not cocking in a straight down direction the bolt could be a few 0.001's out of battery when firing causing the case to be unsupported and stretch out of tolerance at the web wear a non small base die would not reach.

Another option is to grind off the shell holder to let your current seater get lower on the case but that has risks of over sizing the neck and shoulder.

Elvis · Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 1:47 am Post subject: Re: why ??????

Dawgdad...the photo is just the ducks nuts and answers a question.... it appears I may have been changing big teeth only when what I need to do is change a little tooth on wee sprocket.
the sizing issue CANT be neck area as it isnt enguaged when pressure encountered...
unfortunately my micrometer is not a flash fandangled digital one so its mm or smaller than is as accurate as I can get.
all factory loads chamber fine,no pressure needed.
If I full length resize then force shell to chamber and then eject it and load it up they fine to chamber when loaded........now that right there doesnt make sense?????? if its full length resized and we have headspace issue due to being out timing wise SHOULDNT the chamber be BIGGER/LONGER so brass should if anything be really loose???
thank you all for your imput.... will get to bottom of it sooner or later.

RePete · Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 5:03 am Post subject: Re: why ??????

Also, get yourself a headspace/chamber gauge. I have the Lyman one.

www.lymanproducts.com/...auges.html

Aloysius · Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 6:06 am Post subject: Re: why ??????

When headspace causes the problem, why don't you try the trick they use on the Lee Enfield .303 Br? Just take a factory round, put a small rubber O-ring on its neck, chamber the round and fire. The O-ring will hold the base of the case to the bolt and your case will be fire-formed.
Now do necksizing and reload this case and the round will exactly fit into your chamber.

My old SA-FN (in 7x64, not in 30-06 anymore) also has a headspace problem. To cure it, one should exchange the part that locks the bolt. Instead of curing the headspace, I only did necksizing and the problem is gone, no more splitting cases.
Disadvantage: my 7x64 round will not fit into another 7x64 rifle.

And when this works with a semi-auto, it should also work with a lever action. Just check that you never exceed maximum caselength to avoid to much pressure.

chambered221 · Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 7:51 am Post subject: Re: why ??????

Elvis wrote:

If I full length resize then force shell to chamber and then eject it and load it up they fine to chamber when loaded........now that right there doesnt make sense??????

Perhaps forcing it to chamber is changing a dimension on the case just enough to eliminate the issue !!!

You need to eliminate your resizing process as the issue.
This is easily done by comparing measurements before and after resizing of multiple places on the body of the case, the headspace measurement and the over all length.

Don't take for granite just because you ran them through the resizing die that's not the issue.
Seen it to many times.

RePete · Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 8:18 am Post subject: Re: why ??????

Aloysius wrote:

When headspace causes the problem, why don't you try the trick they use on the Lee Enfield .303 Br? Just take a factory round, put a small rubber O-ring on its neck, chamber the round and fire. The O-ring will hold the base of the case to the bolt and your case will be fire-formed.
Now do necksizing and reload this case and the round will exactly fit into your chamber.

My old SA-FN (in 7x64, not in 30-06 anymore) also has a headspace problem. To cure it, one should exchange the part that locks the bolt. Instead of curing the headspace, I only did necksizing and the problem is gone, no more splitting cases.
Disadvantage: my 7x64 round will not fit into another 7x64 rifle.

And when this works with a semi-auto, it should also work with a lever action. Just check that you never exceed maximum caselength to avoid to much pressure.

Just remember that a lever action doesn't have the camming power of a bolt action.

Dawgdad · Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 10:40 am Post subject: Re: why ??????

Elvis wrote:

...
all factory loads chamber fine,no pressure needed.
If I full length resize then force shell to chamber and then eject it and load it up they fine to chamber when loaded........now that right there doesnt make sense?????? if its full length resized and we have headspace issue due to being out timing wise SHOULDNT the chamber be BIGGER/LONGER so brass should if anything be really loose???
thank you all for your input.... will get to bottom of it sooner or later.

Ok - This tells me you have a die/press issue. If all factory brass drops right in... It is at minimum spec size. A shell fired in this rifle should also drop in if the chamber was locked during firing. If the play in the gear teeth allow the bolt to move back you may be getting some part of the case near the web that is unsupported during firing that is too low for your normal sizing die to catch. Try a small base die that returns the cases to minimum spec all the way to the case head. You want every case to drop in like a factory case does. This is not a bench rest rifle where you just neck size to keep the brass tight in the chamber. In my experience with tight chambers and fat brass... a small base die does the job you need.

Elvis · Posted: Thu Nov 30, 2017 1:58 am Post subject: Re: why ??????

update...havent done stuff all as been doing stupid hours at work...... but my tiny wee brain been going overtime.
a set of small base dies will set me back $110 NZ
std dies about $70
in back of my loading cabinet is a set of lyman all american .30/06 dies....hmmm thinks my old brain.same parent case wonder if the "new dimention" .308 dies are wider?????
so took a FLR .308 case ,applied a little lube....put 06 dies in press and removed neck expander and buggamesideways it works the FLR case from about half way down the case.......
right one of you knowledegable people tell me is this to be expected????
does the 06 have same case taper and dimentions as 08 at the web area????
will have to try chambering a empty case done this way and see what happens.
have I stumbled on a poor mans small base sizer????
wouldnt be an issue to run them all through the 06 die then the 08 one at all.....

RePete · Posted: Thu Nov 30, 2017 6:26 am Post subject: Re: why ??????

Look here.

www.google.ca/imgres?i...kQ9QEILTAA

and here

members.saami.org/Manu...gfield.pdf