Howdy jeh7mmmag:

Welcome to the forums and thanks for your post. I especially enjoyed the reference material you cited. lol. Let me say at the outset that the numbers game can be skewed many ways and, in the long run, simply isn't too productive, except it gives us some stuff to banter about. That said, allow some data input.

Barnes #2:
160gr (highest ft/lbs for cartridge) = 2,969 in 7RM
180gr = 3,001 in '06

Nosler:
175gr, 7RM = 3,267 ft/lb
180gr, '06 = 3,361 ft lbs

Clearly the old '06 superceeds the new fangled 7RM, but, does it really?

Your best response is that the BC of these bullets will give an edge at longer ranges in terms of energy and that would be correct. But, it is only a marginal advantage, just as the ft/lb energy rating advantage of the '06 is marginal. But, what happens when we change a few approaches and instead of using ft/lb we compare with Taylor Knock Down Power, another valid and respected measure of effectiveness. Care to guess?

OK OK, maybe I was harsh in calling the 7RM a superb varmint rifle, afterall, it has been known to kill antelope and small deer as well, right? And, it better be used at longer ranges because with all that muzzle flash from such an overbore beast, one could actually set the poor game's hair on fire!! In fact, in some areas (don't ask me which), spark arrestors are required on any 7RM!! I am glad you like your 7RM and I sincerely hope your hearing hasn't been damaged too much by it.

But, like our frequent poster and forum friends says, "Keep It Coming". I like that phrase. But, enough of this chit chat about the 7 Rem Mag, afterall, 2012 looms and we may have more important things about which to be concerned.

You better read again. Look at the ballistic table in any Remington book, and they use 24" barrels for both. The 7 mag is hands down leader in velocity, energy and trajectory. This taken directly off Remingtons site, no edits.

Stanard factory ammunition;

Cartridge Information
Index Number Cartridge Type Weight (grs.) Bullet Style Primer No. Ballistic Coefficient
R7MM4 Remington® Express® 140 Pointed Soft Point Core-Lokt® 9 1/2 M 0.390
RL7MM4 Remington® Managed Recoil® 140 Pointed Soft Point Core-Lokt® 9 1/2 M 0.388
PRC7MMRA Premier® Core-Lokt® Ultra 140 Core-Lokt® Ultra Bonded 9 1/2 M 0.409
PRA7MMRB Premier® AccuTip™ 150 AccuTip™ Boat Tail 9 1/2 M 0.530
PRSC7MMB Premier® Scirocco™ Bonded 150 Swift™ Scirocco™ Bonded 9 1/2 M 0.533
R7MM2 Remington® Express® 150 Pointed Soft Point Core-Lokt® 9 1/2 M 0.346
PRC7MMRC Premier® Core-Lokt® Ultra 160 Core-Lokt® Ultra Bonded 9 1/2 M 0.415
RS7MMA Premier® A-Frame 160 A-Frame™ Pointed Soft Point 9 1/2 M 0.382
R7MM3 Remington® Express® 175 Pointed Soft Point Core-Lokt® 9 1/2 M 0.427


R30061 Remington® Express® 125 Pointed Soft Point 9 1/2 0.268
RL30062 Remington® Managed Recoil® 125 Pointed Soft Point Core-Lokt® 9 1/2 0.267
PRSC3006C Premier® Scirocco™ Bonded 150 Swift™ Scirocco™ Bonded 9 1/2 0.435
PRA3006A Premier® AccuTip™ 150 AccuTip™ Boat Tail 9 1/2 0.415
R30062 Remington® Express® 150 Pointed Soft Point Core-Lokt® 9 1/2 0.314
R30063 Remington® Express® 150 Bronze Point™ 9 1/2 0.365
PRC3006A Premier® Core-Lokt® Ultra 150 Core-Lokt® Ultra Bonded 9 1/2 0.331
L30062 UMC® 150 Metal Case 9 1/2
PRA3006B Premier® AccuTip™ 165 AccuTip™ Boat Tail 9 1/2 0.447
R3006B Remington® Express® 165 Pointed Soft Point Core-Lokt® 9 1/2 0.339
PRC3006B Premier® Core-Lokt® Ultra 168 Core-Lokt® Ultra Bonded 9 1/2 0.356
PRA3006C Premier® AccuTip™ 180 AccuTip™ Boat Tail 9 1/2 0.480
RS3006A Premier® A-Frame 180 A-Frame™ Pointed Soft Point 9 1/2 0.377
PRSC3006B Premier® Scirocco™ Bonded 180 Swift™ Scirocco™ Bonded 9 1/2 0.500
PRC3006C Premier® Core-Lokt® Ultra 180 Core-Lokt® Ultra Bonded 9 1/2 0.402
R30064 Remington® Express® 180 Soft Point Core-Lokt® 9 1/2 0.248
R30065 Remington® Express® 180 Pointed Soft Point Core-Lokt® 9 1/2 0.383
R30066 Remington® Express® 180 Bronze Point™ 9 1/2 0.412
R30067 Remington® Express® 220 Soft Point Core-Lokt® 9 1/2 0.294

7 mag
Velocity (ft/sec)
Cartridge Type Bullet Muzzle 100 200 300 400 500
Remington® Express® 140 PSP CL 3175 2923 2684 2458 2243 2039
Remington® Managed Recoil® 140 PSP CL 2710 2482 2265 2059 1865 1683
Premier® Core-Lokt® Ultra 140 CLUB 3175 2934 2707 2490 2283 2086
Premier® AccuTip™ 150 AT BT 3110 2926 2749 2579 2415 2258
Premier® Scirocco™ Bonded 150 SSB 3110 2927 2751 2582 2419 2262
Remington® Express® 150 PSP CL 3110 2830 2568 2320 2085 1866
Premier® Core-Lokt® Ultra 160 CLUB 2950 2724 2510 2305 2109 1924
Premier® A-Frame 160 AF PSP 2900 2659 2430 2212 2006 1812
Remington® Express® 175 PSP CL 2860 2645 2440 2244 2057 1879

'06
Remington® Express® 125 PSP 3140 2780 2447 2138 1853 1595
Remington® Managed Recoil® 125 PSP CL 2660 2335 2034 1757 1509 1300
Premier® Scirocco™ Bonded 150 SSB 2910 2696 2492 2298 2111 1934
Premier® AccuTip™ 150 AT BT 2910 2686 2473 2270 2077 1893
Remington® Express® 150 PSP CL 2910 2617 2342 2083 1843 1622
Remington® Express® 150 BP 2910 2656 2416 2189 1974 1773
Premier® Core-Lokt® Ultra 150 CLUB 2910 2631 2368 2121 1889 1674
UMC® 150 MC 2910 2617 2342
Premier® AccuTip™ 165 AT BT 2800 2597 2403 2217 2039 1870
Remington® Express® 165 PSP CL 2800 2534 2283 2047 1825 1621
Premier® Core-Lokt® Ultra 168 CLUB 2800 2546 2306 2079 1866 1668
Premier® AccuTip™ 180 AT BT 2725 2539 2360 2188 2024 1867
Premier® A-Frame 180 AF PSP 2700 2465 2243 2032 1833 1648
Premier® Scirocco™ Bonded 180 SSB 2700 2522 2351 2186 2028 1878
Premier® Core-Lokt® Ultra 180 CLUB 2700 2480 2270 2070 1882 1704
Remington® Express® 180 SP CL 2700 2348 2023 1727 1466 1251
Remington® Express® 180 PSP CL 2700 2469 2250 2042 1846 1663
Remington® Express® 180 BP 2700 2485 2280 2084 1899 1725
Remington® Express® 220 SP CL 2410 2130 1870 1632 1422 1246

7 mag
Energy (ft-lbs)
Cartridge Type Bullet Muzzle 100 200 300 400 500
Remington® Express® 140 PSP CL 3133 2655 2240 1878 1564 1292
Remington® Managed Recoil® 140 PSP CL 2283 1915 1595 1318 1081 880
Premier® Core-Lokt® Ultra 140 CLUB 3133 2676 2277 1927 1620 1353
Premier® AccuTip™ 150 AT BT 3221 2850 2516 2215 1943 1697
Premier® Scirocco™ Bonded 150 SSB 3221 2852 2520 2220 1948 1704
Remington® Express® 150 PSP CL 3221 2667 2196 1792 1448 1160
Premier® Core-Lokt® Ultra 160 CLUB 3091 2636 2237 1887 1581 1315
Premier® A-Frame 160 AF PSP 2987 2511 2097 1739 1430 1166
Remington® Express® 175 PSP CL 3178 2718 2313 1956 1644 1372

'06
Remington® Express® 125 PSP 2736 2145 1662 1269 953 706
Remington® Managed Recoil® 125 PSP CL 1964 1513 1148 856 632 469
Premier® Scirocco™ Bonded 150 SSB 2820 2421 2069 1758 1485 1246
Premier® AccuTip™ 150 AT BT 2820 2403 2037 1716 1436 1193
Remington® Express® 150 PSP CL 2820 2281 1827 1445 1131 876
Remington® Express® 150 BP 2820 2349 1944 1596 1298 1047
Premier® Core-Lokt® Ultra 150 CLUB 2820 2305 1868 1498 1188 933
UMC® 150 MC 2820 2281 1827
Premier® AccuTip™ 165 AT BT 2872 2470 2115 1800 1523 1281
Remington® Express® 165 PSP CL 2872 2352 1909 1534 1220 963
Premier® Core-Lokt® Ultra 168 CLUB 2924 2418 1984 1613 1299 1037
Premier® AccuTip™ 180 AT BT 2967 2576 2226 1914 1637 1393
Premier® A-Frame 180 AF PSP 2913 2429 2010 1650 1343 1085
Premier® Scirocco™ Bonded 180 SSB 2913 2542 2208 1910 1644 1409
Premier® Core-Lokt® Ultra 180 CLUB 2913 2457 2059 1713 1415 1161
Remington® Express® 180 SP CL 2913 2203 1635 1192 859 625
Remington® Express® 180 PSP CL 2913 2436 2023 1666 1362 1105
Remington® Express® 180 BP 2913 2468 2077 1736 1441 1189
Remington® Express® 220 SP CL 2837 2216 1708 1301 988 758

7 mag
Short-Range Trajectory
Cartridge Type Bullet 50 100 150 200 250 300
Remington® Express® 140 PSP CL 0.0 0.5 zero -1.6 -4.4 -8.5
Remington® Managed Recoil® 140 PSP CL 0.0 zero -1.5 -4.5 -9.2 -15.7
Premier® Core-Lokt® Ultra 140 CLUB 0.1 0.5 zero -1.6 -4.3 -8.4
Premier® AccuTip™ 150 AT BT 0.0 0.5 zero -1.6 -4.3 -8.2
Premier® Scirocco™ Bonded 150 SSB 0.0 0.5 zero -1.6 -4.3 -8.2
Remington® Express® 150 PSP CL 0.0 0.5 zero -1.6 -4.6 -9.0
Premier® Core-Lokt® Ultra 160 CLUB 0.1 0.6 zero -1.9 -5.2 -10.0
Premier® A-Frame 160 AF PSP 0.2 0.7 zero -2.0 -5.5 -10.7
Remington® Express® 175 PSP CL 0.2 0.7 zero -2.1 -5.6 -10.7

'06
Remington® Express® 125 PSP 0.0 0.6 zero -1.9 -5.2 -10.1
Remington® Managed Recoil® 125 PSP CL -1.2 zero -1.7 -5.2 -10.9 -18.9
Premier® Scirocco™ Bonded 150 SSB 0.1 0.7 zero -2.0 -5.3 -10.2
Premier® AccuTip™ 150 AT BT 0.1 0.7 zero -2.0 -5.4 -10.3
Remington® Express® 150 PSP CL 0.2 0.7 zero -2.2 -5.9 -11.4
Remington® Express® 150 BP 0.2 0.7 zero -2.0 -5.6 -10.8
Premier® Core-Lokt® Ultra 150 CLUB 0.2 0.7 zero -2.1 -5.8 -11.2
UMC® 150 MC -0.2 zero -1.1 -3.6 -7.7 -13.6
Premier® AccuTip™ 165 AT BT 0.2 0.8 zero -2.1 -5.9 -11.1
Remington® Express® 165 PSP CL 0.3 0.8 zero -2.3 -6.3 -12.1
Premier® Core-Lokt® Ultra 168 CLUB 0.3 0.8 zero -2.3 -6.2 -11.9
Premier® AccuTip™ 180 AT BT 0.3 0.8 zero -2.3 -6.1 -11.6
Premier® A-Frame 180 AF PSP 0.0 zero -1.3 -4.2 -8.9 -15.4
Premier® Scirocco™ Bonded 180 SSB 0.0 zero -1.3 -4.0 -8.3 -14.2
Premier® Core-Lokt® Ultra 180 CLUB 0.0 zero -1.3 -4.2 -8.7 -15.1
Remington® Express® 180 SP CL 0.0 zero -1.5 -4.9 -10.3 -18.3
Remington® Express® 180 PSP CL 0.0 zero -1.3 -4.2 -8.8 -15.4
Remington® Express® 180 BP 0.0 zero -1.3 -4.2 -8.7 -15.0
Remington® Express® 220 SP CL 0.1 zero -2.0 -6.2 -12.9 -22.4

7 mag
Long-Range Trajectory
Cartridge Type Bullet 100 150 200 250 300 400 500
Remington® Express® 140 PSP CL 2.2 2.6 1.9 zero -3.2 -14.2 -32.0
Remington® Managed Recoil® 140 PSP CL 1.0 zero -2.5 -6.7 -12.8 -31.3 -59.9
Premier® Core-Lokt® Ultra 140 CLUB 1.3 1.2 zero -2.4 -6.0 -17.7 -36.0
Premier® AccuTip™ 150 AT BT 1.3 1.2 zero -2.3 -5.9 -17.0 -34.1
Premier® Scirocco™ Bonded 150 SSB 1.3 1.2 zero -2.3 -5.9 -17.0 -34.0
Remington® Express® 150 PSP CL 1.3 1.2 zero -2.5 -6.6 -20.2 -43.4
Premier® Core-Lokt® Ultra 160 CLUB 1.6 1.4 zero -2.8 -7.1 -20.8 -42.4
Premier® A-Frame 160 AF PSP 1.7 1.5 zero -3.0 -6.9 -19.8 -40.0
Remington® Express® 175 PSP CL 1.7 1.5 zero -3.0 -7.6 -22.1 -44.8

'06
Remington® Express® 125 PSP 1.5 1.4 zero -2.8 -7.4 -22.4 -47.6
Remington® Managed Recoil® 125 PSP CL 1.1 zero -3.0 -8.0 -15.5 -37.4 -78.7
Premier® Scirocco™ Bonded 150 SSB 1.6 1.5 zero -2.9 -7.3 -21.1 -42.3
Premier® AccuTip™ 150 AT BT 1.7 1.5 zero -2.9 -7.4 -21.5 -43.7
Remington® Express® 150 PSP CL 1.8 1.6 zero -3.2 -8.2 -24.4 -50.9
Remington® Express® 150 BP 1.7 1.5 zero -3.0 -7.7 -22.7 -46.6
Premier® Core-Lokt® Ultra 150 CLUB 1.8 1.6 zero -3.1 -8.0 -23.8 -49.3
UMC® 150 MC
Premier® AccuTip™ 165 AT BT 1.8 1.6 zero -3.2 -7.9 -22.8 -46.2
Remington® Express® 165 PSP CL 2.0 1.7 zero -3.4 -8.7 -25.9 -53.2
Premier® Core-Lokt® Ultra 168 CLUB 1.9 1.7 zero -3.3 -8.5 -25.1 -51.7
Premier® AccuTip™ 180 AT BT 0.9 2.0 zero -3.3 -8.2 -23.7 -47.7
Premier® A-Frame 180 AF PSP 2.1 1.8 zero -3.6 -9.1 -26.6 -54.4
Premier® Scirocco™ Bonded 180 SSB 2.0 1.7 zero -3.3 -8.3 -23.9 -47.9
Premier® Core-Lokt® Ultra 180 CLUB 2.1 1.8 zero -3.5 -8.9 -25.8 -52.7
Remington® Express® 180 SP CL 2.4 2.1 zero -4.3 -11.0 -33.8 -72.8
Remington® Express® 180 PSP CL 2.1 1.8 zero -3.5 -9.0 -26.3 -54.0
Remington® Express® 180 BP 2.1 1.8 zero -3.5 -8.8 -25.5 -52.0
Remington® Express® 220 SP CL 1.3 zero -3.5 -9.5 -18.4 -46.4 -91.6


Note: These ballistics reflected a test barrel length of 24" except those for 30 Carbine and 44 Remington Magnum which are 20" barrels.
Specifications are nominal. Ballistics figures established in test barrels. Individual rifles may vary from test barrel results.
“zero” indicates yardage at which rifle was sighted in.
* Inches above or below line of sight. Hold low for positive numbers, high for negative numbers.
1 Bullet does not rise more than 1" above line of sight from muzzle to sighting-in range.
2 Bullet does not rise more than 3" above line of sight from muzzle to sighting-in range.
† 280 Remington and 7mm Express Remington are interchangeable.
‡ 6mm Remington and 244 Remington are interchangeable.


Read it and weep............ Any questions??????????

Handloader, Me thinks the 600 lbs hanging weight Bull Moose I dropped with my 7MM this year would be insulted at being called a varmint.....

d_hoffman: now that's more like it! Numbers, good solid numbers and from Remington no less -- oh that's the company that introduced it, right?
No matter, it serves only to balance the equation and brings us back to the point and salient question --- do you really believe it matters between the two cartridges? (I say "yes") If so, under what circumstances?

Oh, here's another question to ponder, and this relates to versatility. If you were encountering a mean ole brown bear intent on doing you permanent damage and you could grab your 7RM or the '06 next to it, your choice of bullets, which would you prefer? Why?

Part of my perspective and opinionated position is based on eight years of guiding elk hunters and seeing the performance from various cartridges. Hey, the 7RM will do OK, no doubt, but the '06 was always the more welcomed rifle and had a significantly better record of putting those big boys down. Since the ft/lb energy of the two cartridges is, basically, equal with a slight edge to the '06, something other than ft/lbs is making the difference in terminal performance of the bullet. That's why in a previous post I mentioned the Taylor Knockdown factor. I'll look up some data for comparison sake and we can chew on that a bit.

Grant: congratulations on Bullwinkle. That's a lot of meat for sure. Which bullet, what distance, how many shots? Spread?

My own 7RM is in a Ruger No1S. I've owned two others over the years, along with a 7X61, which I still own, and a STW, now rebarreled. I've killed deer, antelope and elk with them but noted that they did nothing better than the old 7X57 (Ruger No1A) or the 7-08, 308, 300 Savage or (hold on) the '06. Too much loss of good meat with the 7 Magnums and no more deadly a kill. I saw an entire elk hind quarter wasted recently with another Remington cartridge, the 7RUM using a premium bullet (TSX) -- the shot was around 40 yards. That leads in to another subject, the "best" velocity for hunting rounds, but, not tonight.

Well, two shots, one at 400-450 and the other at about 50. I shoot 175 gr Grand Slams in mine. He wasn't a huge bull, 38 inch spread.

My 2 cents,
With all the numbers being tossed around here, I still don't think there will ever be an agreement.
Handloader, you like the '06, I don't. Then again I don't like the .308 either.
That's why they make so many different cartridges.

hunter63 wrote:

My 2 cents, With all the numbers being tossed around here, I still don't think there will ever be an agreement. Handloader, you like the '06, I don't. Then again I don't like the .308 either. That's why they make so many different cartridges.

I like a .308 for target and competition. I would say that you couldn't give me an '06 but there again I could use it to trade for a 7 mag.

A little more research done, cape buffalo have been killed with a 7 mag. Can 30-06 claim that? It doesn't matter the ammo manufacturer be it Remington, Winchester Federal ect. the numbers don't lie.

I think we've beat this dead horse enough, must've been shot with a '06. Had to beat it to die.

d-hoffman wrote:

A little more research done, cape buffalo have been killed with a 7 mag. Can 30-06 claim that?

Yep, sure can........... I think it's safe to say that there isn't anything on the planet that hasn't been taken with a .30-06. It is still the caliber most every other new or old caliber is compared to and if I was only allowed to have one center fire gun, the .30-06 would be the one. Thankfully we aren't limited.

Quote::

CAPE BUFFALO HUNTING TIPS – What is the best caliber to use? Cape Buffalo are thick-skinned animals and the minimum safe caliber is the .375 Magnum. Many people have killed Buffalo with a well placed shot from .270s and 30-06's, one old frontiersman even claimed a head shot with a .22 hornet. However, with Buffalo you can never have too much gun. Today's hunter prefers the large bore double rifles (if you can afford it) as most shots are less than 50 yards and in heavy cover.

www.gssafaris.com/afri...ffalo.html

Cape Buffalo and Elephant have been killed by the fallowing rounds:

-> 30-06 Springfield (Famous person to use it Earnest Hemingway with a Griffin & Howe sporized 1903 Springfield)
-> 303British (Stands to reason as its was the common round because of the British in Africa)
-> 7x57mm Mauser (the Boers used them and made it a common African round, W.D.M. Bell)
-> 240Weatherby Mag (Roy Weatherby)
-> 6.5mm Rounds (6.5x54mm Mannlicher-Schoenauer and 6.5x55mm Mauser etc) (WDM Bell)
-> 270Win

WDM "Karamojo" Bell killed 1,011 elephants with the 6.5mm and 7mm rounds.

Big game doesnt nessisarly mean that a big caliber is needed.

Dimitri

This isn't an argument to be won or lost. It shows different approaches to the same objective -- taking big game and has lead to a spirited and respectful discussion. d_hoffman has championed the 7RM and is enthused about its capability. I admire his passion for the round, whereas, I have tried to present some counterpoints that I believe to be valid and poked some fun here and there.

d_hoffman believes that numbers don't lie, (this in reference to Remington's published ballistics), however, my observation is that factory numbers are exaggerated and best verified by chronograph. My experiece in chronographing various cartridges underscores how good the 7RM is as a cartridge but defaults to the "real" world conclusion that the '06 is the more powerful of the two in terms of ft/lbs which priortizes velocity, velocity verified by actual chronographing of factory loads but only in a few rifles.

Averaging the maximum velocities listed in Lyman 48, Nosler #4, Hornady #7 and Speer, gives their test numbers for a more valid comparison, but, this time let's put aside ft/lbs and calculate the Taylor Knockdown Power, another respected measure of cartridge/bullet performance. While ft/lbs prioitizes kinectic energy, the Taylor index favors mass and caliber. Using that index here is a comparison of three cartridges:

7mmRemMag
160gr 3,000fps 19.47 Taylor
175gr 2,950 20.90

30-06
180gr 2,800 22.18
200gr 2,600 22.88

45-70 (strong action)
350gr 2,300 52.67
400gr 2,100 54.96

Well now, that throws a different light on the matter! If we accept that the 7RM is a good field gun, then by Taylor's numbers we have to accord higher praise to the '06, but, look at that ole 45-70!! Wow. And, yes, trajectories, bullet construction and a host of other variables also must be considered and that's the fun of this thread.

But, my best observation is "let's go hunting!" I'll bring the '06 and d_hoffman can bring his little 7RM and we will all have a good time, shoot some game and tell good stories around the campfire.

Onward

Good Idea......I'll bring the 45-70.....

--tr

But, my best observation is "let's go hunting!" I'll bring the '06 and d_hoffman can bring his little 7RM and we will all have a good time, shoot some game and tell good stories around the campfire.

Onward[/quote]

Sounds like a good time to me, by the way, who's bringing the beer?

The guy with the most powerful rifle in ft/lbs, of course.

d_hoffman: in which state do you live?