HuntingNut
HuntingNut
   Login or Register
HomeCommunity ForumsPhoto AlbumsRegister
     
 

User Info

Welcome Anonymous


Membership:
Latest: RichardZ
New Today: 0
New Yesterday: 0
Overall: 13126

People Online:
Members: 0
Visitors: 747
BOT: 2
Total: 749
Who Is Where:
 Visitors:
01: Forums
02: Forums
03: Forums
04: Forums
05: Home
06: Forums
07: Home
08: Forums
09: Photo Albums
10: Your Account
11: Forums
12: Your Account
13: Forums
14: Forums
15: Home
16: Your Account
17: Forums
18: Forums
19: Forums
20: Forums
21: Photo Albums
22: Your Account
23: Forums
24: Home
25: Forums
26: Home
27: Forums
28: Photo Albums
29: Your Account
30: Forums
31: Forums
32: Your Account
33: Your Account
34: Forums
35: Forums
36: Forums
37: Forums
38: Forums
39: Forums
40: Forums
41: Forums
42: Forums
43: Forums
44: Forums
45: Forums
46: Forums
47: Forums
48: Your Account
49: Forums
50: Forums
51: Forums
52: Forums
53: Forums
54: Home
55: Forums
56: Your Account
57: Forums
58: Forums
59: Forums
60: Forums
61: Your Account
62: Forums
63: Your Account
64: Your Account
65: Forums
66: Forums
67: Forums
68: Home
69: Home
70: Forums
71: Forums
72: Forums
73: Forums
74: Forums
75: Forums
76: Forums
77: Forums
78: Your Account
79: Forums
80: Your Account
81: Forums
82: Home
83: Forums
84: Forums
85: Forums
86: Forums
87: Forums
88: Forums
89: Forums
90: Forums
91: Home
92: Forums
93: Forums
94: Forums
95: Forums
96: Home
97: Forums
98: Your Account
99: Your Account
100: Forums
101: Forums
102: Forums
103: Forums
104: Forums
105: Forums
106: Forums
107: Forums
108: Photo Albums
109: Forums
110: Forums
111: Your Account
112: Forums
113: Your Account
114: Your Account
115: Forums
116: Forums
117: Forums
118: Forums
119: Forums
120: Forums
121: Forums
122: Photo Albums
123: Forums
124: Forums
125: Your Account
126: Forums
127: Your Account
128: Forums
129: Forums
130: Forums
131: Your Account
132: Your Account
133: Photo Albums
134: Photo Albums
135: Your Account
136: Your Account
137: Photo Albums
138: Your Account
139: Photo Albums
140: Your Account
141: Forums
142: Photo Albums
143: Photo Albums
144: Home
145: Forums
146: Forums
147: Forums
148: Forums
149: Forums
150: Photo Albums
151: Photo Albums
152: Photo Albums
153: Photo Albums
154: Forums
155: Forums
156: Forums
157: Forums
158: Forums
159: Your Account
160: Forums
161: Forums
162: Forums
163: Forums
164: Photo Albums
165: Home
166: Forums
167: Forums
168: Your Account
169: Forums
170: Forums
171: Photo Albums
172: Photo Albums
173: Forums
174: Forums
175: Your Account
176: Forums
177: Forums
178: Forums
179: Forums
180: Forums
181: Forums
182: Forums
183: Forums
184: Forums
185: Forums
186: Home
187: Forums
188: Forums
189: Forums
190: Forums
191: Forums
192: Forums
193: Your Account
194: Statistics
195: Forums
196: Forums
197: Photo Albums
198: Forums
199: Forums
200: Forums
201: Forums
202: Your Account
203: Forums
204: Your Account
205: Forums
206: Forums
207: Forums
208: Forums
209: Forums
210: Forums
211: Forums
212: Forums
213: Photo Albums
214: Your Account
215: Forums
216: Forums
217: Forums
218: Forums
219: Forums
220: Forums
221: Forums
222: Photo Albums
223: Forums
224: Forums
225: Forums
226: Photo Albums
227: Your Account
228: Forums
229: Forums
230: Your Account
231: Your Account
232: Home
233: Home
234: Photo Albums
235: Your Account
236: Home
237: Forums
238: Forums
239: Your Account
240: Your Account
241: Your Account
242: Forums
243: Forums
244: Forums
245: Forums
246: Forums
247: Forums
248: Home
249: Home
250: Your Account
251: Forums
252: Photo Albums
253: Your Account
254: Home
255: Home
256: Forums
257: Forums
258: Photo Albums
259: Forums
260: Forums
261: Forums
262: Forums
263: Home
264: Photo Albums
265: Your Account
266: Home
267: Forums
268: Forums
269: Forums
270: Forums
271: Your Account
272: Forums
273: Forums
274: Forums
275: Forums
276: Forums
277: Forums
278: Forums
279: Forums
280: Your Account
281: Forums
282: Forums
283: Forums
284: Forums
285: Forums
286: Forums
287: Forums
288: Forums
289: Forums
290: Your Account
291: Home
292: Home
293: Your Account
294: Forums
295: Forums
296: Forums
297: Forums
298: Photo Albums
299: Forums
300: Your Account
301: Forums
302: Forums
303: Forums
304: Forums
305: Home
306: Your Account
307: Home
308: Photo Albums
309: Your Account
310: Forums
311: Your Account
312: Forums
313: Forums
314: Forums
315: Forums
316: Forums
317: Photo Albums
318: Your Account
319: Forums
320: Photo Albums
321: Photo Albums
322: Forums
323: Forums
324: Forums
325: Your Account
326: Forums
327: Forums
328: Forums
329: Your Account
330: Forums
331: Photo Albums
332: Forums
333: Photo Albums
334: Forums
335: Forums
336: Your Account
337: Forums
338: Forums
339: Home
340: Forums
341: Forums
342: Your Account
343: Forums
344: Forums
345: Your Account
346: Forums
347: Forums
348: Your Account
349: Photo Albums
350: Photo Albums
351: Forums
352: Forums
353: Forums
354: Your Account
355: Forums
356: Forums
357: Forums
358: Forums
359: Forums
360: Forums
361: Forums
362: Forums
363: Forums
364: Forums
365: Forums
366: Forums
367: Forums
368: Forums
369: Forums
370: Forums
371: Forums
372: Forums
373: Forums
374: Forums
375: Forums
376: Your Account
377: Your Account
378: Your Account
379: Forums
380: Forums
381: Forums
382: Forums
383: Forums
384: Home
385: Forums
386: Forums
387: Forums
388: Forums
389: Your Account
390: Forums
391: Forums
392: Forums
393: Forums
394: Forums
395: Forums
396: Forums
397: Home
398: Forums
399: Forums
400: Forums
401: Your Account
402: Home
403: Forums
404: Forums
405: Your Account
406: Forums
407: Forums
408: Forums
409: Home
410: Forums
411: Home
412: Forums
413: Forums
414: Forums
415: Forums
416: Home
417: Your Account
418: Forums
419: Your Account
420: Forums
421: Forums
422: Forums
423: Forums
424: Forums
425: Forums
426: Forums
427: Forums
428: Forums
429: Forums
430: Forums
431: Your Account
432: Forums
433: Home
434: Your Account
435: Forums
436: Photo Albums
437: Home
438: Forums
439: Photo Albums
440: Photo Albums
441: Forums
442: Forums
443: Photo Albums
444: Your Account
445: Forums
446: Photo Albums
447: Photo Albums
448: Forums
449: Forums
450: Forums
451: Home
452: Forums
453: Statistics
454: Home
455: Forums
456: Forums
457: Forums
458: Forums
459: Photo Albums
460: Photo Albums
461: Your Account
462: Forums
463: Forums
464: Forums
465: Forums
466: Forums
467: Forums
468: Photo Albums
469: Forums
470: Forums
471: Forums
472: Forums
473: Photo Albums
474: Forums
475: Your Account
476: Forums
477: Forums
478: Forums
479: Home
480: Photo Albums
481: Your Account
482: Forums
483: Your Account
484: Forums
485: Forums
486: Forums
487: Forums
488: Forums
489: Forums
490: Photo Albums
491: Forums
492: Forums
493: Forums
494: Photo Albums
495: Forums
496: Home
497: Your Account
498: Forums
499: Forums
500: Your Account
501: Home
502: Forums
503: Your Account
504: Forums
505: Photo Albums
506: Forums
507: Forums
508: Forums
509: Forums
510: Forums
511: Your Account
512: Your Account
513: Forums
514: Forums
515: Forums
516: Photo Albums
517: Forums
518: Forums
519: Forums
520: Forums
521: Photo Albums
522: Home
523: Your Account
524: Photo Albums
525: Photo Albums
526: Photo Albums
527: Forums
528: Forums
529: Your Account
530: Your Account
531: Forums
532: Forums
533: Forums
534: Your Account
535: Forums
536: Forums
537: Your Account
538: Home
539: Forums
540: Your Account
541: Forums
542: Forums
543: Forums
544: Photo Albums
545: Forums
546: Forums
547: Home
548: Forums
549: Forums
550: Home
551: Photo Albums
552: Forums
553: Photo Albums
554: Forums
555: Forums
556: Forums
557: Forums
558: Forums
559: Forums
560: Forums
561: Forums
562: Forums
563: Forums
564: Forums
565: Forums
566: Forums
567: Forums
568: Forums
569: Forums
570: Forums
571: Home
572: Your Account
573: Home
574: Forums
575: Forums
576: Forums
577: Forums
578: Forums
579: Forums
580: Photo Albums
581: Forums
582: Your Account
583: Forums
584: Forums
585: Photo Albums
586: Photo Albums
587: Forums
588: Forums
589: Forums
590: Photo Albums
591: Forums
592: Forums
593: Forums
594: Forums
595: Forums
596: Forums
597: Your Account
598: Forums
599: Forums
600: Forums
601: Forums
602: Forums
603: Your Account
604: Photo Albums
605: Your Account
606: Forums
607: Forums
608: Your Account
609: Photo Albums
610: Home
611: Forums
612: Statistics
613: Forums
614: Your Account
615: Home
616: Forums
617: Photo Albums
618: Forums
619: Forums
620: Forums
621: Forums
622: Your Account
623: Forums
624: Forums
625: Forums
626: Forums
627: Forums
628: Photo Albums
629: Forums
630: Your Account
631: Photo Albums
632: Forums
633: Forums
634: Forums
635: Your Account
636: Photo Albums
637: Forums
638: Your Account
639: Forums
640: Forums
641: Forums
642: Forums
643: Home
644: Forums
645: Forums
646: Forums
647: Forums
648: Photo Albums
649: Home
650: Forums
651: Forums
652: Forums
653: Forums
654: Forums
655: Forums
656: Forums
657: Forums
658: Forums
659: Forums
660: Forums
661: Forums
662: Forums
663: Forums
664: Photo Albums
665: Photo Albums
666: Forums
667: Forums
668: Forums
669: Forums
670: Your Account
671: Photo Albums
672: Forums
673: Forums
674: Forums
675: Forums
676: Forums
677: Forums
678: Forums
679: Forums
680: Forums
681: Forums
682: Forums
683: Forums
684: Forums
685: Forums
686: Forums
687: Forums
688: Forums
689: Forums
690: Statistics
691: Photo Albums
692: Photo Albums
693: Forums
694: Forums
695: Photo Albums
696: Your Account
697: Forums
698: Photo Albums
699: Forums
700: Forums
701: Your Account
702: Forums
703: Forums
704: Home
705: Forums
706: Forums
707: Forums
708: Forums
709: Home
710: Photo Albums
711: Photo Albums
712: Forums
713: Forums
714: Forums
715: Forums
716: Forums
717: Your Account
718: Forums
719: Forums
720: Forums
721: Forums
722: Forums
723: Your Account
724: Forums
725: Forums
726: Forums
727: Forums
728: Forums
729: Forums
730: Forums
731: Photo Albums
732: Your Account
733: Forums
734: Forums
735: Your Account
736: Forums
737: Forums
738: Your Account
739: Forums
740: Forums
741: Forums
742: Forums
743: Forums
744: Forums
745: Forums
746: Forums
747: Forums
  BOT:
01: Home
02: Home

Staff Online:

No staff members are online!
 

Coppermine Stats
Photo Albums
 Albums: 308
 Pictures: 2451
  · Views: 820725
  · Votes: 1316
  · Comments: 86
 

Disapointed In Sierra ...
Discussion regarding the reloading of ammunition and tuning of loads for accuracy
Go to page 1, 2  Next
Post new topic   Reply to topic   Printer Friendly Page    Forum Index » Reloading Ammunition

View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Dimitri
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: Nov 25, 2005
Posts: 5944

PostPosted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 12:11 pm    Post subject: Disapointed In Sierra ... Reply with quote

So since I've only bought and loaded Sierra's ammunition so far for my M1A, I decided to buy the manual. I have not been able to find it and last weekend Bass Pro had it for 45$ so I picked it up.

I have been told they had a equations of bullet flight section dealing with the math behind bullet flight (a section I was looking forward too as I've been told about it), but more interesting and kind of annoying is the loads in the books I got at home.

168gr Ammunition ... 308 Win .... Varget .... 2.800 OAL
Richard Lee .. 46gr ... 2731 fps ... Non-Compressed
Hodgdon ...... 46gr ... 2731 fps ... Compressed ... Win Case & Fed Primer
Sierra ..........43.5gr ... 2700 fps ... Non-Compressed ... Fed Primer & Case

Soooooo which Max load should I be following?

My rifle doesn't seem to mind the 43grs I loaded. But I am wondering about this.

Dimitri

_________________
A thousand hills, but no birds in flight, ten thousand paths, with no people's tracks. A lonely boat, a straw-hatted old man, fishing alone in the cold river snow.
Back to top
View user's profile Photo Gallery
Crackshot
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: Oct 23, 2005
Posts: 1693
Location: Mich

PostPosted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 2:37 pm    Post subject: Re: Disapointed In Sierra ... Reply with quote

Are you loading the max load first?? Dimitri come now, you know better. right? Shocked

I hope so. At any rate, the place on the planet the folks work up their loads makes a difference, case volume per manufacture makes a difference,powder lots makes a difference. start at the minimum and work up ALWAYS. thats why we buy several manulas, because they are all gonna have a different result within a safe limit for the same components (sometimes). Thats why we start at the bottom and load UP from there.
I shoot NRA High Power, My Dad always used Winchester cases. He weighted them and measured internal volume with water and segregated them and used only the cases that were close to the same or THE SAME. I use Federal Match brass, Federal does all the work for you. Very Happy

_________________
The human mind is the weapon, the gun is just one of its tools.
Back to top
View user's profile ICQ Number AIM Address MSN Messenger Yahoo Messenger Photo Gallery
Dimitri
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: Nov 25, 2005
Posts: 5944

PostPosted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 3:07 pm    Post subject: Re: Disapointed In Sierra ... Reply with quote

I'm no where near max per the 2 sources at 43gr. It is 7% under max or so. But Sierra claims I am right next to max loadings.

Dimitri

_________________
A thousand hills, but no birds in flight, ten thousand paths, with no people's tracks. A lonely boat, a straw-hatted old man, fishing alone in the cold river snow.
Back to top
View user's profile Photo Gallery
Crackshot
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: Oct 23, 2005
Posts: 1693
Location: Mich

PostPosted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 3:44 pm    Post subject: Re: Disapointed In Sierra ... Reply with quote

Watch your cases. They will tell you when your to hot. I alway use 41.5grains of IMR4064 in Federal match or WW cases under a 168gr Sierra Match King.
Also as you are aware Im sure the M1A is powder sensitive, so beware. IMR 4064 seems to be the perfect powder for the M1A and the M1G. IMHO.

_________________
The human mind is the weapon, the gun is just one of its tools.
Back to top
View user's profile ICQ Number AIM Address MSN Messenger Yahoo Messenger Photo Gallery
gelandangan
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: May 07, 2006
Posts: 6396
Location: Sydney Australia

PostPosted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 4:13 pm    Post subject: Re: Disapointed In Sierra ... Reply with quote

FWIW, this is my 2 cents as a wildcat user...

All maximum data published are RECOMMENDED figure.
They are written as high as the writer (or their lawyer) dare or feel reckless enough to.

YOU on the other hand, have to observe and load accordingly.
It is a function of your observative-ness (is there such a word?) and experience that counts when you are rolling your own.

Regardless of what a data book said, your rifle may just happened to have a tad of tightness (or looseness)in its barrel,
and there goes the THEORETICAL pressure figures.
Or any other small variations such as batches of gun powder or primer, weight of projectile,
the coefficient of friction or hardness of the jacket material etc.
can vary the pressure within the chamber greatly, and in some cases, cause catastrophic failure!!

YOU are NOT supposed to FOLLOW the max, you are supposed to use them as a guideline.

IF AND ONLY IF, as you creep to a (any) max figure, your cartridge brass and primer does not show any sign of over pressure,
you may increase (a little) the load and push the envelope, and go to a next max figure and so on.

Added to that, if you are loading to MAX or NEAR max figures,
you will need to start from beginning again whenever you are using new batches of powder, primers, cases, projectiles or new gun.
The little variation may just be enough to cause the gun to fail, and you are placing your limbs and head nearby when it does..

You are an engineer Mr. D. so approach the challenge in engineering way, divide and conquer..
After all guns are a logically predictable mechanical device, unlike the individuals who use them..

_________________
A straight line is the shortest distance between two points.
A smile is the shortest distance between two people.

Do - Not try!


gelandangan.weebly.com/
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website
slimjim
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: May 16, 2009
Posts: 8314
Location: Fort Worth TX

PostPosted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 4:32 pm    Post subject: Re: Disapointed In Sierra ... Reply with quote

Dimitri wrote:

Hodgdon ...... 46gr ... 2731 fps ... Compressed ... Win Case & Fed Primer
Sierra ..........43.5gr ... 2700 fps ... Non-Compressed ... Fed Primer & Case

I used Federal and Remington cases for my .308. I rely mostly on Hodgdon data when I reload. I found that I could not even load the max charge for Varget in Federal cases even when compressed. I could get more powder (1 to 1.5 grains more) in a Remington case. In my .270, the Winchester cases hold more than the Remington. I expect that would carry over for .308 cases. With less volume in a Federal case, I would expect pressures to be higher and it looks like the data you collected confirms that.
Back to top
View user's profile Photo Gallery
chambered221
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: Aug 17, 2007
Posts: 3455
Location: Lost for good !!!

PostPosted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 4:57 pm    Post subject: Re: Disapointed In Sierra ... Reply with quote

+1 on the gelan post !!!

Remember this !!! You've answered your own question........ You knew it all along.......must of forgot with all that new knowledge your obtaining lately !!! Very Happy

So if Manufacturer "A" uses Winchester Brass they can put in more powder then Manufacturer "B" can that uses Remington Brass. Therefore what is "safe" in Manufacturer "A" opinion maynot completly apply according to Manufacturer "B".

_________________
Ask as many people needed, sooner or later your question will be answered the way you want it answered !!!

A free people ought not only to be armed and disciplined, but they should have sufficient arms and ammunition to maintain a status of independence from any who might attempt to abuse them, which would include their own government.
~George Washington
Back to top
View user's profile Photo Gallery
Dimitri
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: Nov 25, 2005
Posts: 5944

PostPosted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 5:20 pm    Post subject: Re: Disapointed In Sierra ... Reply with quote

Every Varget load online seems to be 43gr +, no matter what the case. Most loads hovering 44-44gr which seem to produce the best accuracy with the 168gr SMK.

Overall from when I was data mining for what to use, many seemed to load compressed loads which are safe per Hodgdon, varying load weights but still compressed loads.

2 reloading manuals list 46gr, one from the powder manufacturer, and one not. Sierra lists otherwise, my loads are well enough below max per the powder manufacturer. Its not like I started by loading compressed charges from the start. Laughing

Dimitri

_________________
A thousand hills, but no birds in flight, ten thousand paths, with no people's tracks. A lonely boat, a straw-hatted old man, fishing alone in the cold river snow.
Back to top
View user's profile Photo Gallery
Vince
Site Admin
Site Admin


Joined: May 25, 2005
Posts: 15704
Location: Brisbane AUSTRALIA

PostPosted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 11:41 pm    Post subject: Re: Disapointed In Sierra ... Reply with quote

'Mitri....I must, by the Rules of Commonsense, agree with everyone else mate.

However, I think that the Sierra figures are either a misprint (they appear to be for a faster powder and are identical to the next fastest ADI powder) or they are, as Gelan points out, covering their butts against litigation.

The manufacturer of Varget, or as we know it out here AR2208 list the following data:

Thales (ADI)

.........................................................................................Starting Loads.....................................Maximum Loads

Bullet Wt (grains).........Powder Type.................Powder Wt (Gr)....Velocity (fps).................Powder Wt (Gr)...................Velocity (fps)

168gr.............................AR2208 ((Varget))..........42.0gr.................2520 fps........................46.0gr C (Compressed)........2730 fps

As the others all stress mate, and yeah I know, I'm preaching to the converted, start low and work up watching for pressure signs.

Cheers, Vince

_________________
Cheers, Vince Cheers

Illegitimi non carborundum
(Never let the bastards grind you down)

Live simply. Love generously. Care deeply. Speak kindly. Leave the rest to God.

"Nulla Si Fa Senza Volonta."
(Without Commitment, Nothing Gets Done)
Back to top
View user's profile AIM Address MSN Messenger Yahoo Messenger Photo Gallery
Dimitri
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: Nov 25, 2005
Posts: 5944

PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 4:11 am    Post subject: Re: Disapointed In Sierra ... Reply with quote

Good to know Vince.

Dimitri

_________________
A thousand hills, but no birds in flight, ten thousand paths, with no people's tracks. A lonely boat, a straw-hatted old man, fishing alone in the cold river snow.
Back to top
View user's profile Photo Gallery
SingleShotLover
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: Dec 26, 2007
Posts: 1005
Location: Illinois

PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 4:36 am    Post subject: Re: Disapointed In Sierra ... Reply with quote

Did Sierra list what they used for a test rifle? As a general rule "universal receivers" tend to produce higher velocities with less powder. Otherwise....well everyone else has already said it! Just be safe.

_________________
If you can't hit it with one, you probably can't with two either!

The biggest problem with a closed mind is that it never seems to come with a closed mouth.

SSL
Back to top
View user's profile Photo Gallery
Pitt55
Member
Member


Joined: Aug 30, 2006
Posts: 104
Location: Prince George, B.C.

PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 6:36 am    Post subject: Re: Disapointed In Sierra ... Reply with quote

I just bought the same manual and many loads were worked up using savage rifles with 26 in. barrels, including 308 win.

_________________
I thought I was wrong once, but I was mistaken!
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail Photo Gallery
fnuser
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: Dec 23, 2008
Posts: 914
Location: S.W. Missouri, U.S.A.

PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 2:56 pm    Post subject: Re: Disapointed In Sierra ... Reply with quote

I've never been disappointed in the accuracy of the loads Sierra publishes for their Bullets alot of other manuals won't even tell you which one worked the best under their circumstances. Their match load for Rl 15 in the 5th edition is still the one I use. It also uses a Savage rifle. Which edition was on sale?

_________________
N.R.A. Endowment Member
Back to top
View user's profile Photo Gallery
Dimitri
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: Nov 25, 2005
Posts: 5944

PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 3:33 pm    Post subject: Re: Disapointed In Sierra ... Reply with quote

5th Edition was the one I picked up.

Dimitri

_________________
A thousand hills, but no birds in flight, ten thousand paths, with no people's tracks. A lonely boat, a straw-hatted old man, fishing alone in the cold river snow.
Back to top
View user's profile Photo Gallery
chambered221
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: Aug 17, 2007
Posts: 3455
Location: Lost for good !!!

PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 4:11 pm    Post subject: Re: Disapointed In Sierra ... Reply with quote

wtf I need to update.............Mines the 3rd edition !!!

_________________
Ask as many people needed, sooner or later your question will be answered the way you want it answered !!!

A free people ought not only to be armed and disciplined, but they should have sufficient arms and ammunition to maintain a status of independence from any who might attempt to abuse them, which would include their own government.
~George Washington
Back to top
View user's profile Photo Gallery
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic   Printer Friendly Page    Forum Index » Reloading Ammunition
Page 1 of 2
All times are GMT - 7 Hours
Go to page 1, 2  Next



Jump to:  


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum


Valid CSS! Valid HTML 4.01!
Click to check if this page is realy HTML 4.01 compliant for speed :)

All logos and trademarks in this site are property of HuntingNut.com.
The comments are property of their posters, all the rest © 2011 by HuntingNut.com
Interactive software released under GNU GPL, Code Credits, Privacy Policy

.: Upgraded to DragonFly 9.2 by *Dizfunkshunal* :.