HuntingNut
HuntingNut
   Login or Register
HomeCommunity ForumsPhoto AlbumsRegister
     
 

User Info

Welcome Anonymous


Membership:
Latest: RichardZ
New Today: 0
New Yesterday: 0
Overall: 13126

People Online:
Members: 0
Visitors: 706
BOT: 2
Total: 708
Who Is Where:
 Visitors:
01: Forums
02: Forums
03: Forums
04: Forums
05: Forums
06: Forums
07: Forums
08: Forums
09: Forums
10: Forums
11: Forums
12: Forums
13: Forums
14: Forums
15: Forums
16: Forums
17: Photo Albums
18: Forums
19: Forums
20: Forums
21: Forums
22: Forums
23: Forums
24: Photo Albums
25: Forums
26: Forums
27: Your Account
28: Forums
29: Forums
30: Your Account
31: Your Account
32: Your Account
33: Forums
34: Forums
35: Forums
36: Forums
37: Forums
38: Forums
39: Home
40: Forums
41: Your Account
42: Forums
43: Forums
44: Home
45: Forums
46: Forums
47: Forums
48: Forums
49: Home
50: Forums
51: Forums
52: Forums
53: Your Account
54: Forums
55: Forums
56: Forums
57: Forums
58: Forums
59: Home
60: Photo Albums
61: Forums
62: Forums
63: Photo Albums
64: Forums
65: Forums
66: Forums
67: Your Account
68: Forums
69: Forums
70: Forums
71: Forums
72: Home
73: Forums
74: Forums
75: Forums
76: Forums
77: Forums
78: Forums
79: Home
80: Forums
81: Photo Albums
82: Forums
83: Forums
84: Forums
85: Forums
86: Photo Albums
87: Forums
88: Your Account
89: Forums
90: Your Account
91: Home
92: Forums
93: Home
94: Forums
95: Forums
96: Forums
97: Forums
98: Forums
99: Forums
100: Photo Albums
101: Home
102: Forums
103: News
104: Home
105: Forums
106: Forums
107: Forums
108: Your Account
109: Forums
110: Forums
111: Forums
112: Forums
113: Forums
114: Forums
115: Forums
116: Forums
117: Home
118: Forums
119: Forums
120: Forums
121: Forums
122: Photo Albums
123: Forums
124: Forums
125: Your Account
126: Your Account
127: Forums
128: Your Account
129: Your Account
130: Forums
131: Forums
132: Forums
133: Forums
134: Photo Albums
135: Home
136: Forums
137: Forums
138: Forums
139: Photo Albums
140: Forums
141: Forums
142: Home
143: Your Account
144: Home
145: Photo Albums
146: Forums
147: Forums
148: Forums
149: Forums
150: Home
151: Forums
152: Forums
153: Photo Albums
154: Forums
155: Photo Albums
156: Your Account
157: Your Account
158: Your Account
159: Your Account
160: Forums
161: Forums
162: Forums
163: Forums
164: Your Account
165: Forums
166: Forums
167: Forums
168: Forums
169: Forums
170: Your Account
171: Forums
172: Your Account
173: Your Account
174: Your Account
175: Photo Albums
176: Home
177: Forums
178: Forums
179: Home
180: Forums
181: Forums
182: Forums
183: Home
184: Forums
185: Forums
186: Your Account
187: Forums
188: Your Account
189: Your Account
190: Forums
191: Forums
192: Forums
193: Forums
194: Forums
195: Forums
196: Forums
197: Your Account
198: Home
199: Your Account
200: Photo Albums
201: Forums
202: Forums
203: Forums
204: Forums
205: Photo Albums
206: Forums
207: Forums
208: Forums
209: Forums
210: Photo Albums
211: Forums
212: Home
213: Forums
214: Forums
215: Home
216: Home
217: Your Account
218: Forums
219: Forums
220: Forums
221: Forums
222: Forums
223: Forums
224: Forums
225: Photo Albums
226: Forums
227: Forums
228: Forums
229: Photo Albums
230: Statistics
231: Forums
232: Forums
233: Forums
234: Forums
235: Forums
236: Forums
237: Home
238: Forums
239: Forums
240: Home
241: Forums
242: Home
243: Home
244: Photo Albums
245: Forums
246: Forums
247: Photo Albums
248: Forums
249: Forums
250: Forums
251: Forums
252: Your Account
253: Forums
254: Forums
255: Forums
256: Photo Albums
257: Forums
258: Forums
259: Your Account
260: Forums
261: Forums
262: Forums
263: Your Account
264: Photo Albums
265: Your Account
266: Forums
267: Forums
268: Forums
269: Forums
270: Forums
271: Forums
272: Photo Albums
273: Your Account
274: Photo Albums
275: Forums
276: Home
277: Forums
278: Your Account
279: Your Account
280: Your Account
281: Forums
282: Photo Albums
283: Home
284: Forums
285: Forums
286: Forums
287: Forums
288: Forums
289: Forums
290: Forums
291: Forums
292: Forums
293: Forums
294: Forums
295: Home
296: Home
297: Forums
298: Forums
299: Forums
300: Forums
301: Forums
302: Forums
303: Forums
304: Forums
305: Forums
306: Forums
307: Forums
308: Forums
309: Your Account
310: Your Account
311: Forums
312: Forums
313: Forums
314: Forums
315: Forums
316: Home
317: Home
318: Forums
319: Forums
320: Forums
321: Forums
322: Forums
323: Photo Albums
324: Forums
325: Forums
326: Forums
327: Forums
328: Forums
329: Forums
330: Home
331: Forums
332: Forums
333: Forums
334: Forums
335: Forums
336: Forums
337: Forums
338: Photo Albums
339: Forums
340: Photo Albums
341: Forums
342: Forums
343: Photo Albums
344: Photo Albums
345: Home
346: Forums
347: Forums
348: Home
349: Home
350: Your Account
351: Your Account
352: Forums
353: Photo Albums
354: Forums
355: Your Account
356: Photo Albums
357: Forums
358: Forums
359: Forums
360: Photo Albums
361: Photo Albums
362: Forums
363: Forums
364: Forums
365: Forums
366: Forums
367: Forums
368: Forums
369: Forums
370: Home
371: Forums
372: Forums
373: Photo Albums
374: Forums
375: Forums
376: Your Account
377: Forums
378: Forums
379: Forums
380: Forums
381: Photo Albums
382: Forums
383: Forums
384: Photo Albums
385: Forums
386: Forums
387: Forums
388: Forums
389: Your Account
390: Photo Albums
391: Home
392: Forums
393: Forums
394: Forums
395: Forums
396: Your Account
397: Home
398: Forums
399: Forums
400: Forums
401: Forums
402: Forums
403: Forums
404: Forums
405: Forums
406: Photo Albums
407: Forums
408: Your Account
409: Forums
410: Your Account
411: Forums
412: Home
413: Home
414: Forums
415: Forums
416: Photo Albums
417: Forums
418: Home
419: Forums
420: Forums
421: Forums
422: Forums
423: Forums
424: Forums
425: Forums
426: Photo Albums
427: Home
428: Forums
429: Photo Albums
430: Forums
431: Forums
432: Forums
433: Forums
434: Forums
435: Forums
436: Your Account
437: Forums
438: Forums
439: Forums
440: Your Account
441: Forums
442: Forums
443: Forums
444: Forums
445: Home
446: Forums
447: Forums
448: Forums
449: Home
450: Forums
451: Forums
452: Forums
453: Home
454: Your Account
455: Forums
456: Your Account
457: Forums
458: Forums
459: Forums
460: Forums
461: Forums
462: Forums
463: Your Account
464: Your Account
465: Home
466: Home
467: Forums
468: Forums
469: Forums
470: Forums
471: Photo Albums
472: Forums
473: Forums
474: Forums
475: News
476: Forums
477: Your Account
478: Forums
479: Forums
480: Forums
481: Your Account
482: Forums
483: Your Account
484: Forums
485: Forums
486: Forums
487: Forums
488: Home
489: Home
490: Home
491: Forums
492: Photo Albums
493: Forums
494: Forums
495: Forums
496: Your Account
497: Home
498: Forums
499: Forums
500: Forums
501: Forums
502: Forums
503: Forums
504: Forums
505: Photo Albums
506: Forums
507: Your Account
508: Forums
509: Forums
510: Home
511: Forums
512: Forums
513: Photo Albums
514: Forums
515: Forums
516: Forums
517: Forums
518: Forums
519: Home
520: Forums
521: Home
522: Forums
523: Forums
524: Forums
525: Forums
526: Forums
527: Your Account
528: News
529: Forums
530: Photo Albums
531: Forums
532: Photo Albums
533: Forums
534: Forums
535: Forums
536: Forums
537: Your Account
538: Forums
539: Home
540: Home
541: Home
542: Forums
543: Forums
544: Forums
545: Forums
546: Forums
547: Forums
548: Forums
549: Forums
550: Forums
551: Forums
552: Photo Albums
553: Forums
554: Forums
555: Forums
556: Forums
557: Forums
558: Forums
559: Forums
560: Forums
561: Home
562: Forums
563: Forums
564: Forums
565: Forums
566: Forums
567: Forums
568: Forums
569: Forums
570: Forums
571: Forums
572: Forums
573: Forums
574: Forums
575: Forums
576: Forums
577: Forums
578: Forums
579: Forums
580: Forums
581: Forums
582: Forums
583: Forums
584: Forums
585: Photo Albums
586: Forums
587: Photo Albums
588: Forums
589: Forums
590: Home
591: Photo Albums
592: Your Account
593: Forums
594: Home
595: Your Account
596: Your Account
597: Forums
598: Forums
599: Photo Albums
600: Photo Albums
601: Forums
602: Forums
603: Forums
604: Forums
605: Forums
606: Forums
607: Your Account
608: Forums
609: Forums
610: Photo Albums
611: Forums
612: Forums
613: Forums
614: Forums
615: Photo Albums
616: Forums
617: Forums
618: Photo Albums
619: Forums
620: Forums
621: Forums
622: Forums
623: Forums
624: Forums
625: Forums
626: Forums
627: Forums
628: Forums
629: Forums
630: Forums
631: Forums
632: Forums
633: Home
634: Forums
635: Forums
636: Forums
637: Photo Albums
638: Your Account
639: Forums
640: Forums
641: Forums
642: Forums
643: Your Account
644: Forums
645: Forums
646: Your Account
647: Forums
648: Forums
649: Home
650: Forums
651: Forums
652: Forums
653: Forums
654: Forums
655: Forums
656: Your Account
657: Your Account
658: Forums
659: Forums
660: Forums
661: Photo Albums
662: Photo Albums
663: Forums
664: Forums
665: Your Account
666: Forums
667: Your Account
668: Your Account
669: Your Account
670: Your Account
671: Forums
672: Your Account
673: Forums
674: Forums
675: Your Account
676: Forums
677: Forums
678: Photo Albums
679: Forums
680: Forums
681: Forums
682: Photo Albums
683: Forums
684: Your Account
685: Forums
686: Forums
687: Home
688: Forums
689: Forums
690: Home
691: Forums
692: Forums
693: Forums
694: Forums
695: Home
696: Photo Albums
697: Your Account
698: Forums
699: Forums
700: Forums
701: Home
702: Forums
703: Home
704: Forums
705: Forums
706: Forums
  BOT:
01: Home
02: Forums

Staff Online:

No staff members are online!
 

Coppermine Stats
Photo Albums
 Albums: 308
 Pictures: 2451
  · Views: 820725
  · Votes: 1316
  · Comments: 86
 

Poll: What moves first, Bullet or Case?
Discussion regarding the reloading of ammunition and tuning of loads for accuracy
Go to page 1, 2, 3  Next
Post new topic   Reply to topic   Printer Friendly Page    Forum Index » Reloading Ammunition

View previous topic :: View next topic  

What Moves First? Bullet or Case.
Bullet
26%
 26%  [ 5 ]
Case
73%
 73%  [ 14 ]
Total Votes : 19

Author Message
Ominivision1
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: Sep 20, 2010
Posts: 2984
Location: Iowa

PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2011 2:13 pm    Post subject: Poll: What moves first, Bullet or Case? Reply with quote

Ok, I have said bullet moves first (even if its thousands of an inch) before case expands at the neck to seal the gases to push bullet out of the muzzle. Whats your opinion?

_________________
Regards

Limitations are but boundaries created inside our minds.
Back to top
View user's profile Photo Gallery
gelandangan
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: May 07, 2006
Posts: 6396
Location: Sydney Australia

PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2011 4:33 pm    Post subject: Re: Poll: What moves first, Bullet or Case? Reply with quote

The case is lighter BUT it it SHOULD be butt packed against the breech,
OTOH the heavier projectile only have its own momentum to overcame.

IMO in a good gun, it is the projectile that moves, and the case stays put.

_________________
A straight line is the shortest distance between two points.
A smile is the shortest distance between two people.

Do - Not try!


gelandangan.weebly.com/
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website
fnuser
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: Dec 23, 2008
Posts: 914
Location: S.W. Missouri, U.S.A.

PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2011 5:21 pm    Post subject: Re: Poll: What moves first, Bullet or Case? Reply with quote

the primer will move first if you have ever seen an uncharged case fire the primer will be backed out slightly because the resulting charge expanding pushes the case back around the primer.

_________________
N.R.A. Endowment Member
Back to top
View user's profile Photo Gallery
Elvis
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: Jul 27, 2008
Posts: 9239
Location: south island New Zealand

PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2011 5:28 pm    Post subject: Re: Poll: What moves first, Bullet or Case? Reply with quote

the case has to move a little either forwards or expanding before the projectile.

_________________
You shot it You pluck it !
Them who eats the most duck eats the most feathers!
Back to top
View user's profile
minerfile
Member
Member


Joined: May 09, 2005
Posts: 51
Location: St. Johns, AZ

PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2011 7:18 pm    Post subject: Re: Poll: What moves first, Bullet or Case? Reply with quote

Newton says that for every action there is an equal and oposite reaction, so both should move at the same time, but then again fnuser may be right that the firing pin striking the primer may initiate the first action.
Back to top
View user's profile
Vince
Site Admin
Site Admin


Joined: May 25, 2005
Posts: 15704
Location: Brisbane AUSTRALIA

PostPosted: Sat Jul 16, 2011 2:30 am    Post subject: Re: Poll: What moves first, Bullet or Case? Reply with quote

I'm going for the case.

If we are talking nanoseconds (NSEC), then as Miner mentioned...Newtons Law...the powder charge starts burning at the primer end of the case, with the resultant pressure expanding in all directions. The base of the case is the first "solid" object that pressure will encounter, followed by the walls of the case and ultimately the projectile.

As I said...nanoseconds, but because the pressure is expanding equally in all directions, the closest part of the cartridge to the point of ignition is the base of the case. Bear in mind that a NSEC is .000000001 (10-9) or 1 billionth of a second.

Cheers, Vince

_________________
Cheers, Vince Cheers

Illegitimi non carborundum
(Never let the bastards grind you down)

Live simply. Love generously. Care deeply. Speak kindly. Leave the rest to God.

"Nulla Si Fa Senza Volonta."
(Without Commitment, Nothing Gets Done)
Back to top
View user's profile AIM Address MSN Messenger Yahoo Messenger Photo Gallery
Ominivision1
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: Sep 20, 2010
Posts: 2984
Location: Iowa

PostPosted: Sat Jul 16, 2011 4:08 am    Post subject: Re: Poll: What moves first, Bullet or Case? Reply with quote

You bring up a good point fnuser, one that was not mentioned in "RIFLE ACCURACY FACTS By: Harold Vaughn". This is why I started this poll, to get other opinions. According to his book, he said that the neck would be completely disengaged (radial movement) before the bullet had moved.

But I'm still thinking the bullet does move (in thousands of inch) before the neck expands. The bullet moves when the force against the base (bullet) exceeds the sum of the friction force on the neck and the force the lands exert against the front of the bullet. If bullet is not seated into the lands then bullet moves when base force exceeds friction force of the neck. Popcorn

_________________
Regards

Limitations are but boundaries created inside our minds.
Back to top
View user's profile Photo Gallery
Suzanne
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: Jun 27, 2009
Posts: 3323
Location: Eugene, Oregon

PostPosted: Sat Jul 16, 2011 8:08 am    Post subject: Re: Poll: What moves first, Bullet or Case? Reply with quote

I can't see that the neck would expand, to the point of completely disengaging the bullet, before the bullet moves. The crimp and the bullet cause the build up of pressure to exceed the crimp's ability to hold the bullet. When the bullet moves, the crimp expands past the cannelure of the bullet. What happens when you over-crimp? Does the neck expand, disengaging the bullet? or does the pressure build to an intolerable amount before the bullet moves?

FN why would a primer in an uncharged case tend to move at all, if there's nothing in the case to cause pressure build up? Or do you mean uncharged, but with a bullet seated?

It obvious the case has to expand after a build up of pressure. The resulting pressure exceeds the crimp's ability to hold the bullet and so the bullet moves.


An everyone
knows I"m
an espert
Suz

_________________
May the moon keep you centered,
May the sun keep you dancing,
And the stars shed light on your dreams.
Back to top
View user's profile
fnuser
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: Dec 23, 2008
Posts: 914
Location: S.W. Missouri, U.S.A.

PostPosted: Sat Jul 16, 2011 9:47 am    Post subject: Re: Poll: What moves first, Bullet or Case? Reply with quote

ok I probably didn't explain that very well but the firing pin strikes the primer driving everything foward especially if you have a chamber where the brass isn't fireformed to. If you do there still is some spring in the brass that is why it works and why you don't use empty brass for headspace guage. Now the primer encounters resistance and fires throwing the spark through the vent, (remember this another cavity connected by a tunnel when the primer fires it backs out a little.) and igniting the powder charge and the case is forced against the bolt face and the entire process of recoil is started. If there isn't any powder to start the recoil process the primer will back out of the case slightly and not be forced back in where we usually see it after extraction. We haven't even started to talk about the bullet leaving the case yet because in the world of nano-seconds this is still in the future.

_________________
N.R.A. Endowment Member
Back to top
View user's profile Photo Gallery
Aloysius
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: Nov 03, 2009
Posts: 2438
Location: B., Belgium

PostPosted: Sat Jul 16, 2011 10:45 am    Post subject: Re: Poll: What moves first, Bullet or Case? Reply with quote

Who was first, the egg or the chicken?

I don't know about you, but I'm not a benchrester and with my shaking, both case and bullet (and even powder and primer) are moving before the firing pin moves forward...
and when the internal PC puts it all together (movement of the target, the gun, the finger, the wind, ...) then the target has a problem. Small mistakes means work for the dogs. Big mistakes make a happy target. And who cares what's first or firster?
Back to top
View user's profile
Ominivision1
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: Sep 20, 2010
Posts: 2984
Location: Iowa

PostPosted: Sat Jul 16, 2011 11:37 am    Post subject: Re: Poll: What moves first, Bullet or Case? Reply with quote

Aloysius wrote:
Who was first, the egg or the chicken?

The zygote cell is the only place where DNA mutations could produce a new animal, and the zygote cell is housed in the chicken's egg. So, the egg must have come first.

Suzanne wrote:
What happens when you over-crimp? Does the neck expand, disengaging the bullet? or does the pressure build to an intolerable amount before the bullet moves?


The tighter the crimp, the more the pressure will rise to get the bullet moving.

_________________
Regards

Limitations are but boundaries created inside our minds.
Back to top
View user's profile Photo Gallery
Pumpkinslinger
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: Sep 22, 2007
Posts: 5001
Location: NC foothills

PostPosted: Sat Jul 16, 2011 1:59 pm    Post subject: Re: Poll: What moves first, Bullet or Case? Reply with quote

I'd think that, if you are talking about movement due solely to the ignition of the powder, they’d both move at the same time in opposite directions. Newton’s Third Law, equal and opposite reaction, etc. If you mean movement due to the strike of the firing pin then again they both move at the same time, and in the same direction, because at that point they are still one unit.

_________________
Mike

"I ain't no better than anybody else, and there ain't nobody better than me!" Ma Kettle
Back to top
View user's profile AIM Address Yahoo Messenger Photo Gallery
Ominivision1
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: Sep 20, 2010
Posts: 2984
Location: Iowa

PostPosted: Sat Jul 16, 2011 2:13 pm    Post subject: Re: Poll: What moves first, Bullet or Case? Reply with quote

Actually, It all happens about the same time when you consider it all takes place within about .00001 second. However when you put numbers with all the variables and do the math you come up with an answer. That is, in a 6PPC with a 70 grain bullet, .001 neck interference, .01 neck thickness, .24 neck engagement, and .3 friction coefficient between bullet and neck the bullet would had moved about .000002 (yes I know it's not a lot) in when neck tension has dropped to zero. All this happens when the pressure has only risen a few hundred psi. Ok I'm Done.
Popcorn

_________________
Regards

Limitations are but boundaries created inside our minds.
Back to top
View user's profile Photo Gallery
slimjim
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: May 16, 2009
Posts: 8314
Location: Fort Worth TX

PostPosted: Sat Jul 16, 2011 6:44 pm    Post subject: Re: Poll: What moves first, Bullet or Case? Reply with quote

How to keep gun nuts busy all day!

_________________
"To anger a conservative, lie to him. To anger a liberal, tell him the truth." - Theodore Roosevelt

"The world is a dangerous place to live; not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don't do anything about it." - Albert Einstein
Back to top
View user's profile Photo Gallery
Pumpkinslinger
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: Sep 22, 2007
Posts: 5001
Location: NC foothills

PostPosted: Sat Jul 16, 2011 6:58 pm    Post subject: Re: Poll: What moves first, Bullet or Case? Reply with quote

slimjim wrote:
How to keep gun nuts busy all day!

Too true!

_________________
Mike

"I ain't no better than anybody else, and there ain't nobody better than me!" Ma Kettle
Back to top
View user's profile AIM Address Yahoo Messenger Photo Gallery
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic   Printer Friendly Page    Forum Index » Reloading Ammunition
Page 1 of 3
All times are GMT - 7 Hours
Go to page 1, 2, 3  Next



Jump to:  


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum


Valid CSS! Valid HTML 4.01!
Click to check if this page is realy HTML 4.01 compliant for speed :)

All logos and trademarks in this site are property of HuntingNut.com.
The comments are property of their posters, all the rest © 2011 by HuntingNut.com
Interactive software released under GNU GPL, Code Credits, Privacy Policy

.: Upgraded to DragonFly 9.2 by *Dizfunkshunal* :.