HuntingNut
HuntingNut
   Login or Register
HomeCommunity ForumsPhoto AlbumsRegister
     
 

User Info

Welcome Anonymous


Membership:
Latest: RichardZ
New Today: 0
New Yesterday: 0
Overall: 13126

People Online:
Members: 0
Visitors: 687
BOT: 2
Total: 689
Who Is Where:
 Visitors:
01: Forums
02: Forums
03: Forums
04: Forums
05: Forums
06: Forums
07: Forums
08: Forums
09: Forums
10: Forums
11: Forums
12: Forums
13: Forums
14: Forums
15: Forums
16: Forums
17: Photo Albums
18: Forums
19: Forums
20: Forums
21: Forums
22: Forums
23: Forums
24: Photo Albums
25: Forums
26: Forums
27: Your Account
28: Forums
29: Forums
30: Your Account
31: Your Account
32: Your Account
33: Forums
34: Forums
35: Forums
36: Forums
37: Forums
38: Forums
39: Home
40: Forums
41: Your Account
42: Forums
43: Forums
44: Home
45: Forums
46: Forums
47: Forums
48: Forums
49: Home
50: Forums
51: Forums
52: Forums
53: Your Account
54: Forums
55: Forums
56: Forums
57: Forums
58: Forums
59: Home
60: Photo Albums
61: Forums
62: Forums
63: Photo Albums
64: Forums
65: Forums
66: Forums
67: Your Account
68: Forums
69: Forums
70: Forums
71: Forums
72: Home
73: Forums
74: Forums
75: Forums
76: Forums
77: Forums
78: Forums
79: Home
80: Forums
81: Photo Albums
82: Forums
83: Forums
84: Forums
85: Forums
86: Photo Albums
87: Forums
88: Your Account
89: Forums
90: Your Account
91: Home
92: Forums
93: Home
94: Forums
95: Forums
96: Forums
97: Forums
98: Forums
99: Forums
100: Photo Albums
101: Home
102: Forums
103: News
104: Home
105: Forums
106: Forums
107: Forums
108: Your Account
109: Forums
110: Forums
111: Forums
112: Forums
113: Forums
114: Forums
115: Forums
116: Forums
117: Home
118: Forums
119: Forums
120: Forums
121: Forums
122: Photo Albums
123: Forums
124: Forums
125: Your Account
126: Your Account
127: Forums
128: Your Account
129: Your Account
130: Forums
131: Forums
132: Forums
133: Forums
134: Photo Albums
135: Home
136: Forums
137: Forums
138: Forums
139: Photo Albums
140: Forums
141: Forums
142: Home
143: Your Account
144: Home
145: Photo Albums
146: Forums
147: Forums
148: Forums
149: Forums
150: Home
151: Forums
152: Forums
153: Photo Albums
154: Forums
155: Photo Albums
156: Your Account
157: Your Account
158: Your Account
159: Your Account
160: Forums
161: Forums
162: Forums
163: Forums
164: Your Account
165: Forums
166: Forums
167: Forums
168: Forums
169: Forums
170: Your Account
171: Forums
172: Your Account
173: Your Account
174: Your Account
175: Photo Albums
176: Home
177: Forums
178: Forums
179: Home
180: Forums
181: Forums
182: Forums
183: Home
184: Forums
185: Forums
186: Your Account
187: Forums
188: Your Account
189: Your Account
190: Forums
191: Forums
192: Forums
193: Forums
194: Forums
195: Forums
196: Your Account
197: Home
198: Your Account
199: Photo Albums
200: Forums
201: Forums
202: Forums
203: Photo Albums
204: Forums
205: Forums
206: Photo Albums
207: Forums
208: Forums
209: Forums
210: Forums
211: Home
212: Home
213: Your Account
214: Forums
215: Forums
216: Forums
217: Forums
218: Forums
219: Forums
220: Forums
221: Photo Albums
222: Forums
223: Forums
224: Forums
225: Photo Albums
226: Statistics
227: Forums
228: Forums
229: Forums
230: Forums
231: Forums
232: Forums
233: Home
234: Forums
235: Forums
236: Home
237: Forums
238: Home
239: Home
240: Photo Albums
241: Forums
242: Forums
243: Photo Albums
244: Forums
245: Forums
246: Your Account
247: Forums
248: Forums
249: Forums
250: Photo Albums
251: Forums
252: Forums
253: Your Account
254: Forums
255: Forums
256: Forums
257: Your Account
258: Photo Albums
259: Your Account
260: Forums
261: Forums
262: Forums
263: Forums
264: Forums
265: Forums
266: Photo Albums
267: Your Account
268: Photo Albums
269: Forums
270: Home
271: Forums
272: Your Account
273: Your Account
274: Your Account
275: Forums
276: Photo Albums
277: Home
278: Forums
279: Forums
280: Forums
281: Forums
282: Forums
283: Forums
284: Forums
285: Forums
286: Forums
287: Forums
288: Forums
289: Home
290: Home
291: Forums
292: Forums
293: Forums
294: Forums
295: Forums
296: Forums
297: Forums
298: Forums
299: Forums
300: Forums
301: Forums
302: Forums
303: Your Account
304: Your Account
305: Forums
306: Forums
307: Forums
308: Forums
309: Home
310: Home
311: Forums
312: Forums
313: Forums
314: Forums
315: Forums
316: Forums
317: Forums
318: Forums
319: Home
320: Forums
321: Forums
322: Forums
323: Photo Albums
324: Forums
325: Forums
326: Photo Albums
327: Forums
328: Photo Albums
329: Forums
330: Forums
331: Photo Albums
332: Photo Albums
333: Home
334: Forums
335: Forums
336: Home
337: Home
338: Your Account
339: Your Account
340: Forums
341: Forums
342: Forums
343: Your Account
344: Forums
345: Your Account
346: Forums
347: Forums
348: Photo Albums
349: Forums
350: Forums
351: Photo Albums
352: Forums
353: Forums
354: Forums
355: Your Account
356: Forums
357: Forums
358: Forums
359: Your Account
360: Forums
361: Your Account
362: Forums
363: Forums
364: Forums
365: Forums
366: Forums
367: Forums
368: Your Account
369: Forums
370: Forums
371: Forums
372: Forums
373: Home
374: Your Account
375: Forums
376: Photo Albums
377: Home
378: Forums
379: Your Account
380: Photo Albums
381: Forums
382: Home
383: Your Account
384: Your Account
385: Your Account
386: Home
387: Forums
388: Forums
389: Forums
390: Forums
391: Forums
392: Forums
393: Forums
394: Forums
395: Photo Albums
396: Forums
397: Your Account
398: Forums
399: Your Account
400: Forums
401: Home
402: Home
403: Forums
404: Forums
405: Photo Albums
406: Forums
407: Home
408: Forums
409: Forums
410: Forums
411: Forums
412: Forums
413: Forums
414: Forums
415: Photo Albums
416: Home
417: Forums
418: Photo Albums
419: Forums
420: Forums
421: Forums
422: Forums
423: Forums
424: Forums
425: Your Account
426: Forums
427: Forums
428: Forums
429: Your Account
430: Forums
431: Forums
432: Forums
433: Forums
434: Home
435: Forums
436: Forums
437: Forums
438: Home
439: Forums
440: Forums
441: Forums
442: Home
443: Your Account
444: Forums
445: Your Account
446: Forums
447: Forums
448: Forums
449: Forums
450: Forums
451: Forums
452: Your Account
453: Your Account
454: Home
455: Home
456: Forums
457: Forums
458: Forums
459: Forums
460: Photo Albums
461: Forums
462: Forums
463: Forums
464: News
465: Forums
466: Your Account
467: Forums
468: Forums
469: Forums
470: Your Account
471: Forums
472: Your Account
473: Forums
474: Forums
475: Forums
476: Forums
477: Home
478: Home
479: Forums
480: Home
481: Forums
482: Photo Albums
483: Forums
484: Forums
485: Forums
486: Your Account
487: Home
488: Forums
489: Forums
490: Forums
491: Forums
492: Forums
493: Forums
494: Forums
495: Photo Albums
496: Forums
497: Your Account
498: Forums
499: Forums
500: Home
501: Forums
502: Photo Albums
503: Forums
504: Your Account
505: Forums
506: Your Account
507: Forums
508: Forums
509: Home
510: Forums
511: Home
512: Forums
513: Forums
514: Forums
515: Forums
516: Forums
517: Your Account
518: News
519: News
520: Photo Albums
521: Photo Albums
522: Forums
523: Forums
524: Forums
525: Forums
526: Your Account
527: Forums
528: Home
529: Home
530: Forums
531: Home
532: Forums
533: Forums
534: Forums
535: Forums
536: Forums
537: Forums
538: Forums
539: Forums
540: Forums
541: Forums
542: Forums
543: Forums
544: Forums
545: Forums
546: Forums
547: Forums
548: Photo Albums
549: Forums
550: Forums
551: Forums
552: Forums
553: Forums
554: Forums
555: Forums
556: Forums
557: Forums
558: Your Account
559: Forums
560: Forums
561: Forums
562: Forums
563: Forums
564: Forums
565: Forums
566: Forums
567: Forums
568: Forums
569: Forums
570: Photo Albums
571: Forums
572: Photo Albums
573: Forums
574: Forums
575: Home
576: Photo Albums
577: Your Account
578: Forums
579: Home
580: Your Account
581: Your Account
582: Forums
583: Forums
584: Photo Albums
585: Photo Albums
586: Forums
587: Forums
588: Forums
589: Forums
590: Forums
591: Forums
592: Your Account
593: Forums
594: Forums
595: Photo Albums
596: Forums
597: Forums
598: Forums
599: Forums
600: Photo Albums
601: Forums
602: Forums
603: Photo Albums
604: Forums
605: Forums
606: Forums
607: Forums
608: Forums
609: Forums
610: Forums
611: Forums
612: Forums
613: Forums
614: Forums
615: Forums
616: Forums
617: Forums
618: Home
619: Forums
620: Forums
621: Forums
622: Photo Albums
623: Your Account
624: Forums
625: Forums
626: Forums
627: Forums
628: Forums
629: Forums
630: Your Account
631: Forums
632: Forums
633: Home
634: Forums
635: Forums
636: Forums
637: Forums
638: Forums
639: Forums
640: Your Account
641: Your Account
642: Forums
643: Forums
644: Forums
645: Photo Albums
646: Photo Albums
647: Forums
648: Forums
649: Your Account
650: Forums
651: Your Account
652: Your Account
653: Your Account
654: Your Account
655: Forums
656: Your Account
657: Forums
658: Forums
659: Your Account
660: Forums
661: Forums
662: Photo Albums
663: Forums
664: Forums
665: Forums
666: Photo Albums
667: Forums
668: Your Account
669: Forums
670: Forums
671: Home
672: Forums
673: Forums
674: Home
675: Forums
676: Forums
677: Forums
678: Forums
679: Forums
680: Forums
681: Forums
682: Forums
683: Forums
684: Forums
685: Forums
686: Forums
687: Your Account
  BOT:
01: Home
02: Forums

Staff Online:

No staff members are online!
 

Coppermine Stats
Photo Albums
 Albums: 308
 Pictures: 2451
  · Views: 820725
  · Votes: 1316
  · Comments: 86
 

Cartridge Design
Discussion regarding the reloading of ammunition and tuning of loads for accuracy
Go to page 1, 2  Next
Post new topic   Reply to topic   Printer Friendly Page    Forum Index » Reloading Ammunition

View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
SwampFox
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: Jul 15, 2005
Posts: 1040
Location: Destin, Florida

PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2006 7:59 am    Post subject: Cartridge Design Reply with quote

Just out of curiosity, has anyone here designed, had a reamer built and chambered a gun for a cartridge? If so, might you explain your cartridge and why you designed it?
Ed

_________________
The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of the blessings. The inherent blessing of socialism is the equal sharing of misery.
-Winston Churchill
Back to top
View user's profile Photo Gallery
wool1
Rookie Member
Rookie Member


Joined: Aug 04, 2006
Posts: 8
Location: Illinois

PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2006 11:02 am    Post subject: Re: Cartridge Design Reply with quote

Designing and building a cartridge is not the hard part. The tough part is finding a cartridge that hasn't been invented yet. I have had the pleasure of being the gunsmith on a current project of a medium bore African game cartridge. The math wizard behind the design came up with the idea to replace an outdated rimmed cartridge with one to fit on a standard mag bolt face. For reasons of legality I can't go into much detail. But if you desire to design a round yourself, contact a good reamer maker. I suggest Dave Manson, he has been wonderful on this project. Have a reamer made, cut a chamber, form some brass and arrive on finish data for the round, ( i.e. make sure it will do what you designed it to do.)
At this point contact a die maker, we worked with Hornady, to make your reloading dies. And a company to headstamp some brass for you. Now you can name a round after yourself. It is a long process if you want to produce it commercially, but if you just want a wildcat for yourself, make one you can use produced reformed brass from another caliber and dies that can be reworked for yourself. And by all means be careful and don't forget to have fun.
Back to top
View user's profile
DallanC
Site Admin
Site Admin


Joined: Jan 18, 2005
Posts: 3571
Location: Utah

PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2006 11:49 am    Post subject: Re: Cartridge Design Reply with quote

Welcome to the site wool1!

Intersting good info, thanks for sharing.


-DallanC
Back to top
View user's profile Photo Gallery
SwampFox
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: Jul 15, 2005
Posts: 1040
Location: Destin, Florida

PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2006 12:55 pm    Post subject: Re: Cartridge Design Reply with quote

Wool1,
Thanks for the reply; I was just wandering if there was another designer on the forum. This is what I had in mind:

My last design was a .308 caliber cartridge that was usable in a handgun.

The intent was to:
A) Use .308 rifle bullets, their BC and SD in a handgun
B) Use rifle bullets within the framework of an existing revolver
C) Escape the "revolver" bullet design now used for over 100 years
D) Design a manufacturable new cartridge for hunting and competition

The concept required:
1) A non-bottleneck case with sufficient taper to allow positive extraction
2) A case that was short enough to permit use of a rifle bullet in revolver
3) Design without getting into the M-N structure or style
4) The case to have sufficient capacity to drive a 150-grain bullet to 1500 fps and a 165-grain bullet to 1350 fps.
5) Accuracy of .500 inches at 50 meters.

The cartridge was initially chambered in a revolver I built and has proven to work quite well. However, I stopped shooting the cartridge and ended its development. The company that was to manufacture the revolver is now gone from the landscape.

Again, thanks for the note. By the by, I prefer Clymer products as I know the good folks who bought the company, about 5-6 years ago, and they make a fine product, are interested in shooters and support the shooting sports with donations. Manson might be great, but I do not know them.
Ed

_________________
The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of the blessings. The inherent blessing of socialism is the equal sharing of misery.
-Winston Churchill
Back to top
View user's profile Photo Gallery
Dimitri
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: Nov 25, 2005
Posts: 5944

PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2006 2:30 pm    Post subject: Re: Cartridge Design Reply with quote

I designed a round based on the 30-06, actually you can form the brass I think from the cartrage never built reamers or anything though. Just a pet project a while back when I was bored Smile

Its a 30-06 Case necked up to 40 caliber and cut back slighty to remove alot of in my opinion the overly expanded neck of the original 30-06 brass. Cool

Someday I hope to make it and since I'm going into Tool and Die I figure I can build the reamers and the reloading dies myself, Cool I attached a picture of my 40 Caliber "Special RimLess Hunter". Reason I say RimLess in the name is because I thought of doing the same thing to the 303 British possibly. Very Happy

PS I know my drawing isnt perfect but its just in the "idea phase" Laughing

Dimitri



40 srlh.jpg
 Description:
 Filesize:  31.66 KB
 Viewed:  11402 Time(s)

40 srlh.jpg


_________________
A thousand hills, but no birds in flight, ten thousand paths, with no people's tracks. A lonely boat, a straw-hatted old man, fishing alone in the cold river snow.
Back to top
View user's profile Photo Gallery
SwampFox
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: Jul 15, 2005
Posts: 1040
Location: Destin, Florida

PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2006 4:14 pm    Post subject: Re: Cartridge Design Reply with quote

Demetri,
Interesting cartridge project. However, the 40 caliber in the 06 brass would look a lot different and like the 400 Whalen and 411 Hawk, would require a good shoulder to headspace upon. If you lenghten the neck to .301 I think it would result in a more stable neck and bullet hold situation.

You might read the following and other articles on the shoulder angle required, as you go along:

www.z-hat.com/smashing...e_myth.htm

Note the 400 in the bottom right of the page.
Ed

_________________
The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of the blessings. The inherent blessing of socialism is the equal sharing of misery.
-Winston Churchill
Back to top
View user's profile Photo Gallery
Dimitri
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: Nov 25, 2005
Posts: 5944

PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2006 6:40 pm    Post subject: Re: Cartridge Design Reply with quote

SwampFox,

Shucks never head that Whelen made a 40cal version. Sad

But I did say my design was "expermental" and in my defence I dont got the book on all the different rifle cartrages that have been made Very Happy

Still althougth hard to "head space" I might refine my idea to get the proper sholder area somehow and increase the neck as you said, and still try building it Very Happy

Tell me my design in my mind was ment to hold smaller 150gr, 180gr and 200gr handgun bullets in 40caliber not heavier rifle bullets. What do you think ?? Confused

Dimitri

_________________
A thousand hills, but no birds in flight, ten thousand paths, with no people's tracks. A lonely boat, a straw-hatted old man, fishing alone in the cold river snow.
Back to top
View user's profile Photo Gallery
wool1
Rookie Member
Rookie Member


Joined: Aug 04, 2006
Posts: 8
Location: Illinois

PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2006 8:42 pm    Post subject: Re: Cartridge Design Reply with quote

Dimitri,

Have you done any stabilization computations? Twist rate ect.? Check with a couple of barrel manufactures and see if they can do a full length .400 barrel. You might run into alot slower twist rates then you may need. I am not personally familiar with any, I am only familiar with lever gun barrels (38-40) originally designed for black powder velosities

I have also seen the crimp be a problem for on higher velosity 38-40 as there is not a bullet manufacture yet to make a 40 cal bullet with a crimp groove.

By no means let my questions or comments detour your ideas, most of our best cartridge designs we have today started as experments.
Back to top
View user's profile
wool1
Rookie Member
Rookie Member


Joined: Aug 04, 2006
Posts: 8
Location: Illinois

PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2006 8:45 pm    Post subject: Re: Cartridge Design Reply with quote

At least I am consistant at misspelling velocity!
Back to top
View user's profile
PaulS
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: Feb 18, 2006
Posts: 4330
Location: South-Eastern Washington - the State

PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2006 8:46 pm    Post subject: Re: Cartridge Design Reply with quote

I agree with using Clymer their work is excellent and they will work with you and talk to you if they have concerns. I have a couple of reamers from them. As for dies you have a lot fewer choices today than you used to. RCBS used to make specialty dies but I don't think they do anymore and there are a coupl of others that won't do the custom stuff. Hornady still does and they are good at it. It is expensive to have the reamers and dies made but if you do the research ahead of time its worth it to see the results that you expected. My two latest cartridges were straight wall cases and I only needed the two reamers and to modify existing dies to get the job done. I haven't made any dies yet but I am going to attempt it just to see if I can.

_________________
Paul
__________________
Speer, Lyman, Hodgdon, Sierra, and Hornady = reliable loading data
So and So's pages on the internet = NOT reliable loading data
Always check data against manuals
NEVER exceed maximum listed loads
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
Dimitri
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: Nov 25, 2005
Posts: 5944

PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2006 9:29 pm    Post subject: Re: Cartridge Design Reply with quote

Wool1,

Lilja at www.riflebarrels.com makes a 40caliber 1-16 twist barrel which also happens to be the standard twist rate for the handguns chambered in such rounds like the 40 S&W Smile

I dont know if this would be "Ideal" in terms of twist rate as my round is a rifle round and will be shooting the same bullets up to 2700fps though Confused

As for head spacing I came up with a idea. Make a soild brass plug that has a flat front shaped like how the rifle brass would be but just till the start of the taper from the body to the neck that way its not headspacing off the sholder but instead off the top most part of the body Smile What you think ?? Confused

Dimitri

_________________
A thousand hills, but no birds in flight, ten thousand paths, with no people's tracks. A lonely boat, a straw-hatted old man, fishing alone in the cold river snow.
Back to top
View user's profile Photo Gallery
SwampFox
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: Jul 15, 2005
Posts: 1040
Location: Destin, Florida

PostPosted: Fri Aug 11, 2006 11:26 am    Post subject: Re: Cartridge Design Reply with quote

Several points and questions raised.

RCBS still lists custom dies on their web site. But just about any die maker has a custom shop; all we need is a checkbook and about 6 months lead-time.

The headspace for rimless cartridges should be on the shoulder. The article about the 400 is an indication of how a few degrees change in shoulder angle can be and is critical for the 40-06.

The use of pistol bullets in a modern high velocity rifle is rife with problems that are inherent in the bullet's design. Pistol bullets are designed to hopefully expand at 1100 to 1500 fps. High velocity simply causes them to spin off the jacket, strip over the rifling or disintegrate upon contact. The worst problem is the abysmal BC due to the 100-year-old design used as the base for all pistol bullets. Sort of like shooting a 1 gallon paint can. Smile

I do not recall ever seeing a crimping groove in a standard production rifle bullet, outside of a cast bullet. Cannelure, yes, groove, no. But a cannelure is needed and one is not present on the selected bullet, a cannelure tool can be purchased.

As to barrels, there are barrel makers out there that will just about make anything we can imagine. Caliber, twist rate, button, broach, cut, forged, etc.

If a barrel is needed for a BP lever gun cartridhe, suggest a contact of Wind River Rifle Company; they specialize in restoration work and make barrels for that very purpose. They own and operate two rifling machines (button and cut) and have 30 plus years experiance in barrel making. You cannot tell one of their new barrels from a 100 year old Winchester, Ballard or Marlin. including the lettering. They can also duplicate the original finish on most old guns. Come with a well-endowed checkbook.

The neck on larger caliber cartridges should have at least .250 inches in bullet seating depth, without the base of the bullet extending below the base of the neck. For a magazine rifle, the neck should be a bit longer to insure stability while being fed from the magazine. Thus the reasoning for the longer neck on the 40.

"Velocity changes stability." An unstable bullet is unstable at any velocity obtainable by that barrel. The twist rate must be changed to stabilize an unstable bullet. The needed twist rate to stabilize a bullet is based on the diameter and length of the bullet, not its velocity.

By the by it appears that you might have a capacity from 65 to 70 grains of water. I have not found a bullet length for the 40, otherwise, I could give you a computer generated load, pressure and velocity.
Ed

_________________
The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of the blessings. The inherent blessing of socialism is the equal sharing of misery.
-Winston Churchill
Back to top
View user's profile Photo Gallery
Dimitri
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: Nov 25, 2005
Posts: 5944

PostPosted: Fri Aug 11, 2006 2:50 pm    Post subject: Re: Cartridge Design Reply with quote

Swampfox,

I read the artical but I think its mainly problems with manufacturing and keeping the infromation of the round a "trade secert".

Quote::
The. 30-06, .25 Whelen (.25-06), .35 Whelen and .38 Whelen all have a shoulder diameter of .441. "The ORIGINAL .400 Whelen shoulder is .458". When and how this information got lost to modern riflemen and writers I have no idea. Many 400's that were made in later years for which I have measurements have the .441" shoulder; this is also true of many resizing dies.

That sounds to me less of a rounds problem with headspace but manufacturers not making proper dies, ammo and the like for the 400 Whelen. Confused People assumed it was designed the same as the 25-06 and the other Whelen's which cased exessive headspace because of the much smaller sholder. Shocked

Quote::
Because of all the bad press many of these rifles have been rebarreled or modified in some way. An early engraved G&H I know of was re-chambered to a belted magnum case so it would have the belt to headspace on.

See this is what was I talking about, execpt instead of headspacing with a belt that the 30-06 case doesnt have I'd head space using the neck so the measurements would be taken from the 1.798" from the base of the round Smile

Mind you the 40 Whelen in my opinion failed because there was no standard so the exessive headspace wasnt as much caused by the rounds lack of a larger sholder but the headspace difference with the neck being .411 instead of .458 which is WAY too small. Very Happy

You are right about the pistol bullets though. Which poses a problem as I wanted this round to be good for the Taylor Knock Out value compared to the 308 instead of just the larger 300gr bullets the 40calibers in rifles are known for Confused

TKO Factors (at 2700fps)
Grains _________ 308cal Value _________ 40cal Value

150gr ....................... 17 ............................. 24
165gr ....................... 19 ............................. 25
180gr ....................... 20 ............................. 27
200gr ....................... 23 ............................. 30

As you can tell I am a beliver of the idea of a bigger bullet in diameter is better. The bigger the bullet in diameter the bigger the "Permanate wound channel", so Taylor's KO factors make sense to me Smile

Plus with the lighter bullets it means that there will be less recoil then shooting a bullet weighing in double then the ones I want to shoot. Like the 40-42 calibers that shoot 300-400gr rounds. Smile

Dimitri

_________________
A thousand hills, but no birds in flight, ten thousand paths, with no people's tracks. A lonely boat, a straw-hatted old man, fishing alone in the cold river snow.
Back to top
View user's profile Photo Gallery
SwampFox
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: Jul 15, 2005
Posts: 1040
Location: Destin, Florida

PostPosted: Mon Aug 14, 2006 1:26 pm    Post subject: Re: Cartridge Design Reply with quote

Demetri,
You will need to headspace off the shoulder and as pointed out in the article, the shoulder on the 40-06 is critical.

I just went one step further, if the body is the same length, the neck is the same diameter and you increase the diameter of the shoulder, you increase the angle of the shoulder at the same time. In the case of .441 VS .458, the difference is but .0085 per side. Not much, but the difference between success and failure.

I think you may be trodding on the edge of the old argument of light and fast VS big and slow. In my experience big and slow recoil is much better than fast and light, if the energy levels are the same, in a big bore rifle. I like the push recoil a lot better than the sharp slap.

I did a lot of experimenting when I was shooting bowling pins and trying to break records. I finally worked out the very best load for energy VS recoil. It was a big bullet and a light charge of fast burning powder with a moderate pressure curve. The same principal applies to big bore rifles.

You might consider defining what you want the rifle to do, bears, deer, etc., then build the gun around the intended purpose, based on the needed energy and expected range.
Ed

_________________
The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of the blessings. The inherent blessing of socialism is the equal sharing of misery.
-Winston Churchill
Back to top
View user's profile Photo Gallery
Dimitri
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: Nov 25, 2005
Posts: 5944

PostPosted: Mon Aug 14, 2006 2:32 pm    Post subject: Re: Cartridge Design Reply with quote

SwampFox,

Thanks for the reply Smile

I guess when I start building dies and the like to try this out I'll make the diamentions so that there is a larger angle. Smile Although now that I know Whelen did make his first I guess its not "original" Confused

My purpose for this was just to have a round similar in balistics to a 30-06 or 308 with a larger bullet for a general purpose rifle round. Not arguing much about light and fast, and big and slow, more into "bigger diameter" with the same weights and speeds as the 308 Very Happy

The logic that I used to come up with the "40-06"

1) Wanted to have a round similar in speed and energy as the 308.
2) Wanted it close to the same case lenght of the 308 (Only 0.100 difference).
3) Needed to pick a common case size to be able to get brass to make the wildcat.
4) Needed it to have the "standard bolt face" to make it easy to adapt to a firearm.
5) Wanted it to be "unique" and since I didnt know of many 40caliber rounds I figured it was "uncharted territory". Laughing

Now because of thouse requirements I figured using a 30-06 case and forming and trimming will get me the case I require. And I also thought I could use hunting handgun sized rounds in the round for 150-200gr bullets. Smile

I'm going to have to draw up some proper CAD drawings of the round sometime soon Smile

Dimitri

_________________
A thousand hills, but no birds in flight, ten thousand paths, with no people's tracks. A lonely boat, a straw-hatted old man, fishing alone in the cold river snow.
Back to top
View user's profile Photo Gallery
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic   Printer Friendly Page    Forum Index » Reloading Ammunition
Page 1 of 2
All times are GMT - 7 Hours
Go to page 1, 2  Next



Jump to:  


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum


Valid CSS! Valid HTML 4.01!
Click to check if this page is realy HTML 4.01 compliant for speed :)

All logos and trademarks in this site are property of HuntingNut.com.
The comments are property of their posters, all the rest © 2011 by HuntingNut.com
Interactive software released under GNU GPL, Code Credits, Privacy Policy

.: Upgraded to DragonFly 9.2 by *Dizfunkshunal* :.