Any it's ALWAYS Fr. Eric that has to be the voice of reason around here Bushy.

Eric

Bushmaster wrote:

And NO the "lower class" do not bennefit from (left wing) socialism.

In the short term they certainly do. In the long term, the proof in the pudding is that things fall apart (unless you consider China socialist, which in some respects it is, but with regards to foreign investment is certainly not). That typically is why there is a 'two party' system in democracies, with fairly opposed views, neither offers a sustainable or comprehensive approach in the long term.

The only real refutation I suppose I can give you Eric will be following November 4 when the democrats win the election. What then will your hard line conservative (for want of a better word) values have achieved (assuming for a moment that you are completely correct and I and the left are utterly wrong)? A large backlash against the majority of the community (including those that want 'change' but don't really know 'why' or to what...) and vastly expanded power and influence to the 'left' which will inevitably lead to problems in the future (whether they are right or wrong in principle) I forsee some bad, popularity driven policies being rushed through parliament (congress?) to appease the masses in their need for 'change.'

The arguement I put forward for limited gun control is simply as a result of these figures. In 2001 there were almost 12,000 homicides involving a firearm in the US . In Australia over the same period there were 47...

Enough politics, I'm going fishing for the cup day long weekend...

Claymore wrote:

On the other hand; we could consider the definition of right/left held in WW2. We had the Germans (and such) on the 'right' with a totalitarian regime, and democracy on the 'left.'

No, this is a narrow minded view on politics. A democracy CANNOT exist in a left wing country. It is either bought votes pushing people to vote for it to continue so they can keep getting their check every month or its forced in a one party system.

In a absolute right wing country there is no such thing as a central government to control the will of the citizens. There is no need, the country has been deregulated to the point of people doing what they wish with their lives. There is no police required as the people take care of criminals who threaten/take away their right to live freely by their own means.

A democracy is just a middle ground till the buying of votes from the government's treasury turns it into a left wing country in time. This is inevitable, the majority of people in time will always feel self entitled to what they do not earn themselves (greed and laziness).

Claymore wrote:

Then this altered somewhat with the rise in communism where we then had the Soviets on the 'left' and the US on the 'right.' I think this is probably one of the more dominant influence on our current perception of 'left' and 'right.'

Communism replaced monarchies in many countries under the "umbrella" of being for the people. It is never about helping the people of the country, nor is it much different as compared to the monarchy it replaced. They both use different means to get the same result. Communists say "everyone is equal" which applies to everyone BUT the elite who do as they wish to gain their own power (as seen in any communist country to date) while a Monarchy says similar "We are on top but everyone else is below us". Both mean the same thing. Just one is a pill that is easier to swallow for most people in the country.

Although one may make the argument a Monarchy is actually a "right" type of political system, think about it this way, they prefer strong central control of the people and the country, they regulate any business to feed their own pockets or they simply take control of what ever assets they wish when it suits them. They are really in a truest sense a left wing governmental system. And generally operate identically like the "communist" system. They so "despise" each other not on what they do but the fact the systems both mean the end to the other ones power base.

Claymore wrote:

This is seriously called into question following the Republican 'bailout' package, which is about as extreme 'left' economic policy as it comes.

Bail outs however worded generally involve the purchase of interest producing assets even if a large number of them default and the government only gets back the principle they still make money on the interest on the ones that are paid off. It is not a "leftest" policy the way it was done. Would have been a leftest policy if they took over the market and didn't pay off the investors. As a leftest policy makes anything you own the government's when ever the government wants it.

By the way I know I am responding to a older post but I was busy last night and have not been online for since Wednesday.

Dimitri

Dimitri,

You are exactly right in your definitions and assumptions. This is the way it has always worked, and will always work. If a person believes differently, I would say that they have been listening to the advocates of the socialist agenda, without analyzing the information, or just plain sitting back, listening, applying the information to real world situations, and (using a little Texas Slang) figger'n it out for yourself.

Cary

I have decided to stay right out of any further discussions about politics...well the heated discussions anyway.

I am happy to post bits and pieces that start rational people discussing things sensibly...but I do not wish to be drawn into any heated discussions.

Remember guys...we are all one big HAPPY family here and whilst everyone is entitled to their point of view...as they should be...it is much more pleasant if we argue about the biggest deer shot this year rather than something that can never be changed...like political beliefs.

Cheers, Vince

But I like my political debates Vince. Great way to unwind after 2 days of working and partying with a very cute girl and working again, being home just enough to get a few of hours of sleep in between.

Dimitri

Dimitri wrote:

But I like my political debates Vince. Great way to unwind after 2 days of working and partying with a very cute girl and working again, being home just enough to get a few of hours of sleep in between. Dimitri

Vincenzo - The Forgetter of Bolts wrote:

I am happy to post bits and pieces that start rational people discussing things sensibly

Oh, you're a bad man 'Mitri....stirrin' the "pot" like that.

Hey mate...what's this about a very cute girl????? You wanna watch out...Hope won't be a happy little camper mate....unless of course you was out wiv Hope.

Cheers, Vince

Actually I found out Hope thinks I am a ugly bugger. So I guess Eric's idea of a wedding is off.

Actually cute girl I met last night is a few many years older then Hope.

Dimitri

Dimitri wrote:

Actually I found out Hope thinks I am a ugly bugger. So I guess Eric's idea of a wedding is off. Actually cute girl I met last night is a few many years older then Hope. Dimitri

Well mate, you know what they say...beauty is only skin deep....but ugly goes all the way to the bone.

An "older woman" eh mate...you devil you. As my dear old Dad used to say..."Many a fine tune is played on an old fiddle."

Cheers, Vince

Dam.. as a fella Ozian, I wont say anything here.
But Yeah this topic is scary.. big wide division of ideas
whos wrong whos right?
What if the budhist are the right religion, or the hindi, or the ao dai etc..
What if I like potato and you like potatoe..

I hate politics, an I hate people.. .... better go back to the bush

Gelan The Intelligent wrote:

I hate politics, an I hate people.. .... better go back to the bush.

Gelan old mate....move over and make room in the truck, I'm a-comin' wiv ya mate.

Cheers, Vince

I think that you two guys should be made to move over here for one Election Year Vince.
24-7 on TV, Radio, and Print.
Our Constitution has produced the greatest County in history, but I don't think that our Founding Fathers ever intended us Citizens to be put through this kind of Political insanity.

Eric

Gidday Eric....its no different over here mate. When we have our elections its almost as bad...and this year we have all of the election crap from over there as well, because what happens in the US elections has the potential to affect the rest of the free nations in one way or another.

I hate all of the political BS that floats around during an election year. We know that 98% is BS, but that doesn't stop it from being promulgated...and the politicians are using public funds to spread the garbage!!! You guys are not forced to vote over there...we have compulsory voting...we don't vote, we get fined. At least you can escape some of the crap of election day.

Damn...I'm getting off my soapbox...gonna burn it!!!

Cheers, Vince

What scares me is how many people base their vote on a sound bite or what "Aunt Ethel said...” Someone told tonight that their vote was decided by how much gas cost on the way to the polling place!

Or "I don't want to be a looser so I'll vote for the one I think will win so I'm on the winning team"...

I'd rather vote what I feel is right and loose then to vote what I know to be wrong and win.

And this year it's a toss up as to who is right, but...Sen. McCain comes the closest...

Room for three in that truck?