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Barrel contact with stock and accuracyDiscussions related to Guns and Firearms
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lesterg3 Super Member
Joined: Nov 30, 2008 Posts: 1328 Location: Dixie
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Posted: Sat Jan 03, 2009 2:16 pm Post subject: Barrel contact with stock and accuracy |
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OK guys, be gentle with me on this. I have looked at posting history and have not seen anything about this, so if I missed it I apologize.
I have a Rem 700 7MM Mag that is not very consistent in grouping.
I have tried two different scopes that have preformed well on other rifles, and have gone through the standard checklist of tightening screws and so on. Have cleaned and cleaned and cleaned.
The bore on the barrel looks great.
I am not using hand loads yet, but constantly use Rem Core-Lokt ammo, 150 gr PSP.
One thing I have noticed is that the barrel is in contact with the stock, what I mean here is that I cannot get a piece of cigarette wrapper cellophane between the barrel and the stock.
I don't have anything thinner to try with.
From what I have read barrels should be free from contact with the stock,
True? False?
If this is true, what do you suggest I do?
Can I just sand down the barrel relief on the stock, or is it more complicated?
What is the best thing to do, I would like to keep this rifle, but expect more from it than it's giving me.
I purchased this rifle used, and am having a love hate relationship with it right now.
One other thing, if I do indeed need to rework the stock's barrel cavity, would it be a good idea to refinish the stock at the same time, any suggestions?
_________________ "A democracy is nothing more than mob rule, where fifty-one percent of the people may take away the rights of the other forty-nine. "--Thomas Jefferson
The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government. -- Thomas Jefferson
"Americans have the right and advantage of being armed - unlike the citizens of other countries whose governments are afraid to trust the people with arms."--James Madison
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SingleShotLover Super Member
Joined: Dec 26, 2007 Posts: 1005 Location: Illinois
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Posted: Sat Jan 03, 2009 4:54 pm Post subject: Re: Barrel contact with stock and accuracy |
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Barrels that are free-floated will shoot better than those that are not...maybe.
I know that is an ambiguous answer, but the facts are that some rifles like contact and others don't. Before floating your barrel, look to make sure that there is no uneven pressure anywhere along the channel and the action is properly bedded. Sometimes manufacturer's finishes are thin and allow the grain to raise in these places causing contact that bears unevenly along the barrel. This can also be a major cause of accuracy problems.
The best way for you to find out if your barrel will benefit from floating is to place a thin layer of cardboard (squares of business card work great) between the stock and the action right at the recoil lug area. Use just enough to allow a sheet of typing paper to pass freely between the barrel and the barrel channel. Make absolutely sure that there is sufficient clearance between the bolt body and the rear of the bolt cutout in the stock to keep the bolt from contacting the stock in this area upon firing (this will almost certainly cause a split in this area and since the grain is likely running the length of the stock, it will knock a generous amount of the stock loose). Now try your rifle.
If this works, carefully sanding the barrel channel to allow for the same barrel clearance will free-float your barrel. If you choose to do this, try maintaining contact for the first couple of inches forward of the recoil lug. Some rifles like this and if yours doesn't, it is easy to just remove material in that area too. Just be sure to seal the channel with stock oil or a good "spar" varnish to prevent the grain from raising with humidity and causing you problems later.
If you are going to do this work it would seem to be an ideal opportunity to refinish the stock at the same time if you plan to anyway.
Good luck and keep us posted as to your results.
_________________ If you can't hit it with one, you probably can't with two either!
The biggest problem with a closed mind is that it never seems to come with a closed mouth.
SSL
Last edited by SingleShotLover on Sat Jan 03, 2009 5:08 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Gil Martin Super Member
Joined: Jan 28, 2005 Posts: 1837 Location: Schnecksville, PA
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Posted: Sat Jan 03, 2009 5:00 pm Post subject: Re: Barrel contact with stock and accuracy |
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It depends whether free-floating a barrel channel will help a rifle shoot better. All of my bolt action hunting rifles have been floated and they shoot great. I have known cases where free floating did not help, but that was rare. So it depends. My suggestion would be to try it and if it does not work, then glass bed the action or some other option. All the best...
Gil
_________________ Gil |
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shrpshtrjoe Super Red Neck Member
Joined: Jan 26, 2005 Posts: 2965 Location: Maryland
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Posted: Sat Jan 03, 2009 5:49 pm Post subject: Re: Barrel contact with stock and accuracy |
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Gil Martin wrote: |
It depends whether free-floating a barrel channel will help a rifle shoot better. All of my bolt action hunting rifles have been floated and they shoot great. I have known cases where free floating did not help, but that was rare. So it depends. My suggestion would be to try it and if it does not work, then glass bed the action or some other option. All the best...
Gil |
+1 on what Gil said. You said the rifle does not shoot consistent groups ?. Does it just not group well or are the groups eratic.
Joe
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P E T A
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wncchester Member
Joined: Apr 08, 2006 Posts: 160
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Posted: Sat Jan 03, 2009 6:35 pm Post subject: Re: Barrel contact with stock and accuracy |
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"One thing I have noticed is that the barrel is in contact with the stock, what I mean here is that I cannot get a piece of cigarette wrapper cellophane between the barrel and the stock.... From what I have read barrels should be free from contact with the stock,.."
Barrels should alway be floated. Part of the time! Some work better floated, some don't. Only way to tell is try both, no shortcuts here.
What is ALWAYS BAD is loose or random contact and it appers that you have it. The usual admonition to slid a dollar under the barrel to check fo free-floating is silly. That's only .003" and ANY stock will bend that much according to how it's rested/held. To be floated requres that the gap is sufficent that there is no contact with differenct holds, hard and soft, etc.
Seal any raw wood under the inletting to reduce water absorbtion and resulting warping. The exposed end grain is like a sponge for water. Don't neglict sealing the checkering, stock screw holes, sling swivel holes and under the butt plate and its screws.
A small can of MInwax Marine Polyurethane can be found at Walmart, it's inexpensive, tough, both oil and water proof. I use at least four coats of lightly thinned poly as a stock sealer. Appy the first coat heavy but wipe away any surface excess after it soaks for maybe five minutes. The rest of the coats should be quite thin. Use an old toothbrush to clean finish out of the checlering after each coat there.
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Pumpkinslinger Super Member
Joined: Sep 22, 2007 Posts: 5001 Location: NC foothills
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Posted: Sat Jan 03, 2009 8:44 pm Post subject: Re: Barrel contact with stock and accuracy |
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Free floating barrels can work well on heavy barrels, like varmint rifles. I tried it on two sporter weight barrels; a Ruger 77/.22 Hornet and a Win 70 Classic Featherwieght in .280. Both rifles went to he... err, heck. Both started shooting better as I added some pieces of card stock back to the barrel groove about 1" back from the end of the fore end. At this point both rifles still have the card stock in there until I have time to do it right and glass bed a contact point in the fore end.
_________________ Mike
"I ain't no better than anybody else, and there ain't nobody better than me!" Ma Kettle |
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Vince Site Admin
Joined: May 25, 2005 Posts: 15704 Location: Brisbane AUSTRALIA
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Posted: Sat Jan 03, 2009 11:10 pm Post subject: Re: Barrel contact with stock and accuracy |
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Lester...the guys have covered in good detail the idea of floating your barrel.
Gil mentioned bedding the action. This never hurts and can only help...even if you don't float the barrel.
One thing that has not been mentioned is the mounting bolts. Check to see that they have been tightened in the correct order...makes one helluva difference on my Weatherby Vanguard...and that they are torqued to the correct tension. The correct tension, more than anything, can make a big difference to accuracy.
How do I know this? Two boxes of ammo trying to zero my .243 before my mate suggested checking the mount bolts. Of course one was tight, but not to the tension required, and I had tightened them in the wrong order as well.
Cheers, Vince
_________________ Cheers, Vince
Illegitimi non carborundum
(Never let the bastards grind you down)
Live simply. Love generously. Care deeply. Speak kindly. Leave the rest to God.
"Nulla Si Fa Senza Volonta."
(Without Commitment, Nothing Gets Done) |
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Dimitri Super Member
Joined: Nov 25, 2005 Posts: 5944
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Posted: Sat Jan 03, 2009 11:44 pm Post subject: Re: Barrel contact with stock and accuracy |
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Factory Remingtons should be free floated with a single point a couple of inches from the end of the stock with contact with the barrel.
Lightweight sporter barrels will preform nicely with a 5-10 pound pressure caused by a build up of stock in a point to keep the whole barrel from wanting to vibrate when being shot.
Perhaps it was done improperly. But this is the reason Remington's have a "reputation" for out of the box accuracy for many years as they figured out a way to get lightweight barrels to shoot unlike other companies at the time.
Dimitri
_________________ A thousand hills, but no birds in flight, ten thousand paths, with no people's tracks. A lonely boat, a straw-hatted old man, fishing alone in the cold river snow. |
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Vince Site Admin
Joined: May 25, 2005 Posts: 15704 Location: Brisbane AUSTRALIA
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K.W. Super Member
Joined: Mar 19, 2007 Posts: 348 Location: Finland
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Vince Site Admin
Joined: May 25, 2005 Posts: 15704 Location: Brisbane AUSTRALIA
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Posted: Sun Jan 04, 2009 5:43 am Post subject: Re: Barrel contact with stock and accuracy |
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Hi Kauko....you are meaning that you have had too much Juleøl or mjød or maybe akevitt.
Seriously though mate, your English is ok...it makes sense and is understood.
Cheers, Vince
_________________ Cheers, Vince
Illegitimi non carborundum
(Never let the bastards grind you down)
Live simply. Love generously. Care deeply. Speak kindly. Leave the rest to God.
"Nulla Si Fa Senza Volonta."
(Without Commitment, Nothing Gets Done) |
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chambered221 Super Member
Joined: Aug 17, 2007 Posts: 3455 Location: Lost for good !!!
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Posted: Sun Jan 04, 2009 9:51 am Post subject: Re: Barrel contact with stock and accuracy |
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I’m in agreement with everyone else here !!!
The only thing that has not been clearly established is where the contact is ???
I’m assuming that your talking about a pressure point that was put in from the factory.
Pressure points in lightweight barrels are good things most of the time. But stock/barrel contact in the wrong area is bad.
The pressure point that D and others speak of is a cheap fix ( that does work ) to get a barrels harmonics to resonate on a more consistent pattern and allow them to come to a rest at the same spot. Hopefully !!!
Better quality barrels are less likely to need this trick.
_________________ Ask as many people needed, sooner or later your question will be answered the way you want it answered !!!
A free people ought not only to be armed and disciplined, but they should have sufficient arms and ammunition to maintain a status of independence from any who might attempt to abuse them, which would include their own government.
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shootist Member
Joined: Dec 30, 2005 Posts: 73 Location: Lackawaxen,PA
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Posted: Sun Jan 04, 2009 10:07 am Post subject: Re: Barrel contact with stock and accuracy |
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Based on my experience...rifles that have difficulty grouping reasonably well have bedding problems. But here's what I would check:
1. Check the target for any signs of keyholing.
2. Check the muzzle's crown carefully using a magnifier.
3. Loosen action screws and check the stock/action for rocking.
4. Inspect the tang area of the stock for gouging.
5. Shim the front of the action to reduce or eliminate the front pressure point and range test again. Measure the amount of pressure point bump,for historical record.
6. Snug up front action screw to just firm, tap stock's butt on soft surface and snug up the front then the rear screws to torque specs or firm.
If necessary, disassemble and check every pressure/bedding point for unusual or deep compression....best suggestion is to pillar bed /glass the action /free-float the barrel.
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Dimitri Super Member
Joined: Nov 25, 2005 Posts: 5944
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Posted: Sun Jan 04, 2009 11:22 am Post subject: Re: Barrel contact with stock and accuracy |
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Vince wrote: |
I think you will find that there are a number of US designed rifles the same 'Mitri. |
Yup I am sure almost any manufacturer now does it. However I have been told repeatedly by sources I trust that Remington was the first hence why I mentioned them.
Dimitri
_________________ A thousand hills, but no birds in flight, ten thousand paths, with no people's tracks. A lonely boat, a straw-hatted old man, fishing alone in the cold river snow. |
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TRBLSHTR Super Member
Joined: Mar 23, 2007 Posts: 1071 Location: Lower 48's-left coast(near portlandia)
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Posted: Sun Jan 04, 2009 12:11 pm Post subject: Re: Barrel contact with stock and accuracy |
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Ihave been following this thread for a while now ,and after having done more that 50(fifty)bedding and free floating jobs on various bolt actions of all manufacture,and some(other than bolt action)I want to know if any of the "gunsmiths" here have actually fired these guns in a rapid fire game hunting type of grouping?Lets say 5 shots in 10 seconds!What I have found in the past with these factory guns with the forend in contact with the barrel and positive pressure is that the first round will always go where it is aimed,but subsequent shots fired in a short time frame will generally go higher than the point of aim.This is due to the fact that the barrel has upwared pressure on it by the stock contact and that the heating of the barrel from the quickly repeated shots tend to make the barrel deflect in the direction that the pressure on the stock is pushing.I have had rugers,remingtons,weatherby's,winchester(mod 70's),mausers,and savages that all had the forearm pushing against the barrel and after completely free floating the barrel and glass bedding the action and the chamber area found that these guns would actually group in rapid fire hunting type scenarios,on paper!These guns for the most part have all been light wieght tapered barrel sporter models. The only situation that I have found that if a gun would not group after free floating and glass bedding would not group (with the right load)is when the barrel has been damaged from the factory,or from sombody having a hunting mishap and replacing the stock only to find out that they bent or "dented" the barrel.At that point simply replace the barrel.....my nickels worth!
_________________ "Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil." Thomas Mann |
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