HuntingNut
HuntingNut
   Login or Register
HomeCommunity ForumsPhoto AlbumsRegister
     
 

User Info

Welcome Anonymous


Membership:
Latest: RichardZ
New Today: 0
New Yesterday: 1
Overall: 13126

People Online:
Members: 1
Visitors: 345
BOT: 1
Total: 347
Who Is Where:
 Members:
01: Aloysius > Forums
 Visitors:
01: Forums
02: Home
03: Forums
04: Home
05: Your Account
06: Home
07: Photo Albums
08: Home
09: Forums
10: Forums
11: Forums
12: Forums
13: Forums
14: Forums
15: Home
16: Your Account
17: Forums
18: Forums
19: Forums
20: Forums
21: Forums
22: Your Account
23: Forums
24: Your Account
25: Forums
26: Photo Albums
27: Forums
28: Forums
29: Forums
30: Forums
31: Your Account
32: Forums
33: Your Account
34: Forums
35: Forums
36: Forums
37: Photo Albums
38: Forums
39: Forums
40: Forums
41: Forums
42: Home
43: Forums
44: Forums
45: Forums
46: Forums
47: Forums
48: Photo Albums
49: Home
50: Home
51: Forums
52: Photo Albums
53: Your Account
54: Your Account
55: Forums
56: Forums
57: Your Account
58: Forums
59: Your Account
60: Forums
61: Forums
62: Forums
63: Home
64: Your Account
65: Forums
66: Forums
67: Forums
68: Your Account
69: Forums
70: Forums
71: Forums
72: Forums
73: Forums
74: Forums
75: Forums
76: Home
77: Forums
78: Forums
79: Photo Albums
80: Forums
81: Forums
82: Forums
83: Photo Albums
84: Forums
85: Home
86: Forums
87: Your Account
88: Photo Albums
89: Forums
90: Forums
91: Home
92: Your Account
93: Your Account
94: Forums
95: Forums
96: Forums
97: Your Account
98: Forums
99: Home
100: Your Account
101: Forums
102: Home
103: Forums
104: Home
105: Forums
106: Forums
107: Photo Albums
108: Your Account
109: Photo Albums
110: Home
111: Forums
112: Forums
113: Forums
114: Forums
115: Forums
116: Forums
117: Forums
118: Forums
119: Forums
120: Forums
121: Your Account
122: Forums
123: Home
124: Forums
125: Forums
126: Forums
127: Your Account
128: Forums
129: Forums
130: Home
131: Photo Albums
132: Forums
133: Forums
134: Photo Albums
135: Forums
136: Forums
137: Your Account
138: Home
139: Photo Albums
140: Forums
141: Forums
142: Forums
143: Forums
144: Forums
145: Home
146: Your Account
147: Forums
148: Forums
149: Photo Albums
150: Forums
151: Your Account
152: Forums
153: Forums
154: Home
155: Forums
156: Forums
157: Forums
158: Forums
159: Forums
160: Your Account
161: Forums
162: Home
163: Forums
164: Forums
165: Forums
166: Forums
167: Forums
168: Forums
169: Forums
170: Forums
171: Forums
172: Forums
173: Photo Albums
174: Your Account
175: Forums
176: Forums
177: Forums
178: Forums
179: Forums
180: Your Account
181: Forums
182: Forums
183: Forums
184: Your Account
185: Photo Albums
186: Forums
187: Forums
188: Photo Albums
189: Forums
190: Forums
191: Photo Albums
192: Forums
193: Forums
194: Your Account
195: Photo Albums
196: Forums
197: Photo Albums
198: Home
199: Your Account
200: Photo Albums
201: Photo Albums
202: Your Account
203: Photo Albums
204: Forums
205: Photo Albums
206: Forums
207: Home
208: Home
209: Home
210: Forums
211: Forums
212: Forums
213: Home
214: Forums
215: Home
216: Forums
217: Forums
218: Forums
219: Forums
220: Forums
221: Forums
222: Home
223: Photo Albums
224: Forums
225: Forums
226: Forums
227: Forums
228: Home
229: Forums
230: Home
231: Photo Albums
232: Home
233: Your Account
234: Forums
235: Forums
236: Your Account
237: Home
238: Forums
239: Home
240: Forums
241: Forums
242: Forums
243: Home
244: Home
245: Forums
246: Forums
247: Forums
248: Photo Albums
249: Forums
250: Your Account
251: Forums
252: Forums
253: Forums
254: Your Account
255: Forums
256: Forums
257: Your Account
258: Forums
259: Forums
260: Your Account
261: Forums
262: Forums
263: Forums
264: Statistics
265: Forums
266: Your Account
267: Home
268: Forums
269: Forums
270: Forums
271: Home
272: Forums
273: Forums
274: Forums
275: Forums
276: Home
277: Forums
278: Forums
279: Forums
280: Forums
281: Photo Albums
282: Photo Albums
283: Forums
284: Your Account
285: Forums
286: Forums
287: Your Account
288: Forums
289: Forums
290: Forums
291: Forums
292: Forums
293: Photo Albums
294: Forums
295: Home
296: Forums
297: Forums
298: Forums
299: Forums
300: Photo Albums
301: Forums
302: Forums
303: Forums
304: Forums
305: Forums
306: Forums
307: Forums
308: Forums
309: Forums
310: Forums
311: Photo Albums
312: Photo Albums
313: Photo Albums
314: Forums
315: Forums
316: Forums
317: Forums
318: Forums
319: Forums
320: Photo Albums
321: Forums
322: Forums
323: Forums
324: Photo Albums
325: Forums
326: Forums
327: Forums
328: Your Account
329: Forums
330: Forums
331: Forums
332: Forums
333: Forums
334: Your Account
335: Forums
336: Home
337: Photo Albums
338: Forums
339: Forums
340: Home
341: Forums
342: Forums
343: Forums
344: Home
345: Photo Albums
  BOT:
01: Photo Albums

Staff Online:

No staff members are online!
 

Coppermine Stats
Photo Albums
 Albums: 308
 Pictures: 2451
  · Views: 820723
  · Votes: 1316
  · Comments: 86
 

H110 with 140 grain bullets in 357 problem noted!
Discussion regarding the reloading of ammunition and tuning of loads for accuracy
Post new topic   Reply to topic   Printer Friendly Page    Forum Index » Reloading Ammunition

View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
PaulS
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: Feb 18, 2006
Posts: 4330
Location: South-Eastern Washington - the State

PostPosted: Sun Mar 26, 2006 3:13 pm    Post subject: H110 with 140 grain bullets in 357 problem noted! Reply with quote

I am finally having to buy a new keg of H110 and I was checking my load records and found a discrepancy - I hate it when that happens!

My newer manuals (Hodgdon and Speer) list maximum loads at 18.0 grains of H110 with a 140 grain bullet in a 357 Magnum.
My loading data shows loads of 19.3 with the same powder, bullet and gun.
I checked my old books (Speer and Sierra) and they list maximums of 19.5 grains of H110 with a 140 grain bullet in the 357 Magnum.

I like the way the load shoots that I have been using but I am wondering if the powder has changed or if Speer decided that the load was just too hot for some guns. (the only change in the data was that in the old books they used a Ruger and the new data used a S&W 19 as test weapons)
I am thinking that I will have to back the load down below the 18 grains and work my way up toward the data that I have.

Any suggestions for short-cuts?

_________________
Paul
__________________
Speer, Lyman, Hodgdon, Sierra, and Hornady = reliable loading data
So and So's pages on the internet = NOT reliable loading data
Always check data against manuals
NEVER exceed maximum listed loads
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
DallanC
Site Admin
Site Admin


Joined: Jan 18, 2005
Posts: 3571
Location: Utah

PostPosted: Sun Mar 26, 2006 4:16 pm    Post subject: Re: H110 with 140 grain bullets in 357 problem noted! Reply with quote

Compare current Hodgdon data vs data from the mid 1980's... everything is backed off... some things a huge amount. Compare say 7STW data now and then... tremendous difference. I once emailed them asking and they didnt really give me a good answer. I think its legal speak personally and they are reducing loads well below max limits to give them a larger margin of saftey.



-DallanC
Back to top
View user's profile Photo Gallery
Vince
Site Admin
Site Admin


Joined: May 25, 2005
Posts: 15701
Location: Brisbane AUSTRALIA

PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2006 12:48 am    Post subject: Re: H110 with 140 grain bullets in 357 problem noted! Reply with quote

DallanC wrote:
Compare current Hodgdon data vs data from the mid 1980's... everything is backed off... some things a huge amount. Compare say 7STW data now and then... tremendous difference. I once emailed them asking and they didnt really give me a good answer. I think its legal speak personally and they are reducing loads well below max limits to give them a larger margin of saftey.



-DallanC

Gidday Dallan. Don't know who was producing Hogdons powder in the 80's, but it is my understanding that ADI Limited (an Australian Company)supplies powder to them now. This may well account for the differences in load data.

The ADI powder equivalent listed for H4227/H110 is AR2205, which I have used for 357 magnum for a few years. They list 18.0 grains as the maximum load for 140 grain bullets. This leads me to believe that Hogdons are now listing the ADI AR2205 data for their powder H4227/H110.

I doesn't surprise me that Hogdon was a little reticent in disclosing their reasons for the difference in data as this sort of information is usually convered a a caveat of "Commercial in Confidence" and as such would not be released by the company.

Cheers, Vince

_________________
Cheers, Vince Cheers

Illegitimi non carborundum
(Never let the bastards grind you down)

Live simply. Love generously. Care deeply. Speak kindly. Leave the rest to God.

"Nulla Si Fa Senza Volonta."
(Without Commitment, Nothing Gets Done)
Back to top
View user's profile AIM Address MSN Messenger Yahoo Messenger Photo Gallery
PaulS
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: Feb 18, 2006
Posts: 4330
Location: South-Eastern Washington - the State

PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2006 4:11 am    Post subject: Re: H110 with 140 grain bullets in 357 problem noted! Reply with quote

My Hodgdon manuals #22 printed in 1974 and #25 printed in 1988 - both list 17 grains as maximum loads for a 140 grain 357mag using H110. No change in that time span. I don't have a newer Hodgdon manual so I can't compare it to anything from them - their website doesn't list a 140 grain bullet it jumps from 125 @ 22gr to 146 at 17.2gr.
Speer #11 list 19.5 in a Security-Six; Speer #12 lists 18 in a S&W model 19; Speer #13 lists 17.2 in a S&W model 19
My Sierra manual from 1985 and my Lyman #47 manual both list 19.5 grains as maximum (both use universal receivers and Lyman uses a vented receiver)

So, the newest manuals are the Speer #13 (1998) and the Lyman (1995) and the difference between them is 17.2 - 19.5 or 2.3 grains differnce.
My experience seems to support the Lyman data which agrees with the oldest Speer manual and the old Sierra manual.
You can see why I am confused - the powder supplier is 2.5 grains lower than the maximum listed load in three of my other manuals and the Speer manual disagrees with itself by dropping the maximum in each successively newer manual. I am assured that the powder has not changed - I know that the SAAMI specs have not changed - The bullets are the same and my gun has not changed (that I can measure).
Can I trust that if I don't have sticky cases when fired, the primers look normal and the cases last more than ten loadings that I am not firing a load that is over the SAAMI standard pressure? Those symptoms may not appear until pressures are tens of thousands of PSI over the listed maximum. They cannot be trusted to indicate over-pressure loads. When the manuals disagree what is safe? wise? For a guy that has always thought that I was loading safely below the maximum I am now wondering.

_________________
Paul
__________________
Speer, Lyman, Hodgdon, Sierra, and Hornady = reliable loading data
So and So's pages on the internet = NOT reliable loading data
Always check data against manuals
NEVER exceed maximum listed loads
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
Vince
Site Admin
Site Admin


Joined: May 25, 2005
Posts: 15701
Location: Brisbane AUSTRALIA

PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2006 7:10 am    Post subject: Re: H110 with 140 grain bullets in 357 problem noted! Reply with quote

PaulS wrote:
My Hodgdon manuals #22 printed in 1974 and #25 printed in 1988 - both list 17 grains as maximum loads for a 140 grain 357mag using H110. No change in that time span. I don't have a newer Hodgdon manual so I can't compare it to anything from them - their website doesn't list a 140 grain bullet it jumps from 125 @ 22gr to 146 at 17.2gr.
Speer #11 list 19.5 in a Security-Six; Speer #12 lists 18 in a S&W model 19; Speer #13 lists 17.2 in a S&W model 19
My Sierra manual from 1985 and my Lyman #47 manual both list 19.5 grains as maximum (both use universal receivers and Lyman uses a vented receiver)

So, the newest manuals are the Speer #13 (1998) and the Lyman (1995) and the difference between them is 17.2 - 19.5 or 2.3 grains differnce.
My experience seems to support the Lyman data which agrees with the oldest Speer manual and the old Sierra manual.
You can see why I am confused - the powder supplier is 2.5 grains lower than the maximum listed load in three of my other manuals and the Speer manual disagrees with itself by dropping the maximum in each successively newer manual. I am assured that the powder has not changed - I know that the SAAMI specs have not changed - The bullets are the same and my gun has not changed (that I can measure).
Can I trust that if I don't have sticky cases when fired, the primers look normal and the cases last more than ten loadings that I am not firing a load that is over the SAAMI standard pressure? Those symptoms may not appear until pressures are tens of thousands of PSI over the listed maximum. They cannot be trusted to indicate over-pressure loads. When the manuals disagree what is safe? wise? For a guy that has always thought that I was loading safely below the maximum I am now wondering.

Gidday Paul. Firstly mate, I would be very wary about what I used in a Model 19 S & W. The K Frame was not designed to live on a diet of Magnum loads. Why do I know this you ask.....I split the forcing cone on one with Magnum loads. Didn't realise it until it locked the cylinder shut!! Silly about it was the cases showed minimal signs of pressure. The primers were flattened but not cratered and the cases pretty well fell out of the cylinder.

Trust me when I say look at the ADI loading data. I have it on very good authority that they are supplying powder to Hogdon so the loading data for their powder, AR2205, is the same as for H4227/H110 because it is the same powder.

Cheers, Vince

_________________
Cheers, Vince Cheers

Illegitimi non carborundum
(Never let the bastards grind you down)

Live simply. Love generously. Care deeply. Speak kindly. Leave the rest to God.

"Nulla Si Fa Senza Volonta."
(Without Commitment, Nothing Gets Done)
Back to top
View user's profile AIM Address MSN Messenger Yahoo Messenger Photo Gallery
PaulS
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: Feb 18, 2006
Posts: 4330
Location: South-Eastern Washington - the State

PostPosted: Tue Mar 28, 2006 3:50 am    Post subject: Re: H110 with 140 grain bullets in 357 problem noted! Reply with quote

Vince,

I shoot a Ruger Security-Six - the manual lists the model 19 as its test weapon.
secondly, AR2205 can't be the same powder as both H4227 and H110.
H4227 is an extruded single base powder that is made in cylindrical kernals and H110 is a spherical, double base, powder that resembles small, soft, balls of powder.
The data for these two powders is way different and cannot be interchanged in any cartridge or loading that I am aware of - and I checked all of my manuals.
Since I am completely unfamiliar with AR2205 but in checking around I found this:

The following modern smokeless powders are manufactured for Hodgdon Powder Company by St. Marks Powders.

HP-38® HS-6
H110® H335®
H414® H870®
HS-7® BL-C(2)®
H380 ® H108®
H116® TITEWAD®
H872® TITEGROUP®
LIL' GUN® LONG SHOT®
H450 US869

and:

The following smokeless powders are manufactured for Hodgdon Powder Company by ADI, Ltd.:
H4227® H50BMG ®
H4895® H4831®
H4198 ® H4831SC ®
VARGET® H1000®
H4350® RETUMBO®

These are from the Hodgdon web site and so AR2205 is not H110 because it is made by St. Marks Powder Co. and not ADI

_________________
Paul
__________________
Speer, Lyman, Hodgdon, Sierra, and Hornady = reliable loading data
So and So's pages on the internet = NOT reliable loading data
Always check data against manuals
NEVER exceed maximum listed loads


Last edited by PaulS on Tue Mar 28, 2006 5:13 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
popgun
Member
Member


Joined: Jan 26, 2005
Posts: 735
Location: Mitchell, GA, U.S.A. (2007 pop. 191)

PostPosted: Tue Mar 28, 2006 3:51 am    Post subject: Re: H110 with 140 grain bullets in 357 problem noted! Reply with quote

When in doubt go back to your starting load and work up again with a new lot of powder. Very Happy All powder companies state to start over in their reloading manuals and guides. It might be a pain to start over but when guns come apart you don't have time to duck the many parts flying toward you.

Many of us exceed the SAAMI starting loads by observing case and primer signs as we work up the loads. Maximum in my rifle may be more or less than SAAMI. The SAAMI standards are for factory ammo and are listed as maximum in the manuals by agreement between powder companies and SAAMI. These limits are a guide and not a hard and fast maximum for your gun. The powder companies refuse liability when you exceed SAAMI loads. All of the loads in the manuals are for one specific firearm or a pressure gun/barrel. That is the reason that we rarely duplicate a velocity for a given load in a manual and why two different manuals have different numbers for the same powder and bullet weight combination.

Vince,
I think you are looking at the ADI burn rate chart and if so they are saying that the 3 powders are 'near' the same burn rate 'class' but they are not the exact same burn rate. You are right that ADI does supply powders to Hodgdon, ie Varget & Benchmark, and that information is in the ADI reloading guide and on their website.

All of the burn rate charts record one lot of powder tested and not a regular update for each new lot. That is why we should always start at the recomended starting load for any lot of powder.

You can even have problems when you work up a load to a published max. Hodgdon had a load for Hodgdon Clays that caused a 'ka-boom' in my 40 S&W pistol. The load I worked up to was well below the published max and no pressure signs until I squeezed off on that loading. The next published Hodgdon manual listed a much reduced load for the round and powder combo because of the many complaints of 'ka-booms'. So remember that the manuals and burn rate charts are guides and not bibles. They sometimes have some bum info from my experience.

_________________
Safe shooting,
Chris Young, aka: popgun, Moderator
I don't know everything but I have made most of the mistakes already and lived through many of them.


Last edited by popgun on Thu Mar 30, 2006 12:06 am; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile ICQ Number AIM Address MSN Messenger Yahoo Messenger Photo Gallery
Vince
Site Admin
Site Admin


Joined: May 25, 2005
Posts: 15701
Location: Brisbane AUSTRALIA

PostPosted: Tue Mar 28, 2006 5:13 am    Post subject: Re: H110 with 140 grain bullets in 357 problem noted! Reply with quote

popgun wrote:
When in doubt go back to your starting load and work up again with a new lot of powder. Very Happy All powder companies state to start over in their reloading manuals and guides. It might be a pain to start over but when guns come apart you don't have time to duck the many parts flying toward you.

All of the burn rate charts record one lot of powder tested and not a regular update for each new lot. That is why we should always start at the recomended starting load for any lot of powder.

So remember that the manuals and burn rate charts are guides and not bibles. They sometimes have some bum info from my experience.

Agree with you popgun as far as starting again is concerned. It is probably the most sensible thing to do because of the ambiguity in the data and confusion.

As for the powders that ADI manufacture for Hogdon, I will look into that one a little more.

Cheers, Vince

_________________
Cheers, Vince Cheers

Illegitimi non carborundum
(Never let the bastards grind you down)

Live simply. Love generously. Care deeply. Speak kindly. Leave the rest to God.

"Nulla Si Fa Senza Volonta."
(Without Commitment, Nothing Gets Done)
Back to top
View user's profile AIM Address MSN Messenger Yahoo Messenger Photo Gallery
PaulS
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: Feb 18, 2006
Posts: 4330
Location: South-Eastern Washington - the State

PostPosted: Tue Mar 28, 2006 5:08 pm    Post subject: Re: H110 with 140 grain bullets in 357 problem noted! Reply with quote

OK all,

I got an email (the fourth one) from Sierra. I won't give out the person's name because I think some rules might have been broken to get me the information.
The new books have data listed as maximum that is generating pressures (as listed by the testers) at 17500 CUP below the SAAMI standard maximum. a jump of .8 grains moves the pressure up 4000 CUP (as tested in their lab) my load was a tad more than that much more so even if it doubles the pressure jump adding 8000 CUP to the existing pressure (12000 over the listed load) I am still 4500 to 5500 CUP below the SAAMI maximum pressures for the 357 Mag.
Shooting this load from my Ruger at 5000 to 9000 CUP below the maximum I should be safe with the load that I have been using that has shown no signs of excessive pressure in the last 20 years.
I will reduce the charge 3% from where I was reloading and work it back up to where I get my accuracy or hit the maximum listed of 19.5 in my Lyman #47, Speer #11 and Sierra manuals. It is nice to know that my load is and has been below maximum all these years.
It was nice to have the help that I got from the Sierra people when they knew I am using Speer bullets - Good people - Good products - just not the product I use in this loading.

_________________
Paul
__________________
Speer, Lyman, Hodgdon, Sierra, and Hornady = reliable loading data
So and So's pages on the internet = NOT reliable loading data
Always check data against manuals
NEVER exceed maximum listed loads
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
popgun
Member
Member


Joined: Jan 26, 2005
Posts: 735
Location: Mitchell, GA, U.S.A. (2007 pop. 191)

PostPosted: Wed Mar 29, 2006 10:01 pm    Post subject: Re: H110 with 140 grain bullets in 357 problem noted! Reply with quote

Sierra techs have always been helpful to me. Sometime it takes a dialog with them to get what you are looking for. This dialog gives them a look at your reloading experience level and your knowledge of pressure signs, use of cronograph, etc.
The whole group of guys there are great!

_________________
Safe shooting,
Chris Young, aka: popgun, Moderator
I don't know everything but I have made most of the mistakes already and lived through many of them.
Back to top
View user's profile ICQ Number AIM Address MSN Messenger Yahoo Messenger Photo Gallery
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic   Printer Friendly Page    Forum Index » Reloading Ammunition
Page 1 of 1
All times are GMT - 7 Hours



Jump to:  


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum


Valid CSS! Valid HTML 4.01!
Click to check if this page is realy HTML 4.01 compliant for speed :)

All logos and trademarks in this site are property of HuntingNut.com.
The comments are property of their posters, all the rest © 2011 by HuntingNut.com
Interactive software released under GNU GPL, Code Credits, Privacy Policy

.: Upgraded to DragonFly 9.2 by *Dizfunkshunal* :.