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Newer and Better???
Discussions related to Guns and Firearms
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1895ss
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2006 8:08 pm    Post subject: Re: Newer and Better??? Reply with quote

Off Topic

Back to the 06. Very Happy

I have had my 30-06 in Parker Hale 1200, that I bought new, since 1972 and it still looks and shoots like new. At 100 yrds, with a 4X scope a 5 shot group, shooting 180 gr Hornady's, has all bullets touching. It is one great gun and cartridge and I would never be without one.

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Bushmaster
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2006 8:12 pm    Post subject: Re: Newer and Better??? Reply with quote

I am not going to get into this except to say I have no use for the .308 winchester (nato) round. Why would I need a round between .30-30 and .30-06??? .30-06 150grain can be pushed to 3,000 fps

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1895ss
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2006 8:13 pm    Post subject: Re: Newer and Better??? Reply with quote

roklok wrote:
The .308 has everything to do with the 30-06!! It is simply a shorter version. The specs are identical except the case is shorter. In fact the US military modified some M1 Garands originally chambered for the '06 to use the .308 or 7.62 NATO by simply putting a block in front of magazine to allow for the shorter cartridges and cementing an adapter in chamber to make chamber about half an inch shorter.Didnt even have to rebarrel! The .308 is closer to the '06 in performance than a lot of people believe,only about 90-100 fps difference in factory loads.And bullet nose profile has nothing to do with muzzle velocity,downrange performance yes,not muzzle velocity.From remington specs for 150 grain bullet:30-30 2390 fps,.308 2820 fps,30-06 2910 fps.

That may be but it is not related to the 30-06 by using the same case, like diff neck size and shoulder angle. There are lots of cartridges that are shorter or longer versions of certain cartridges......... but not when it comes down to changing only neck size........... !

I agree Bushy, why would one want a .308 when the 30-06 can do do it better.................

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1895ss
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2006 8:18 pm    Post subject: Re: Newer and Better??? Reply with quote

Bushmaster wrote:
I am not going to get into this except to say I have no use for the .308 winchester (nato) round. Why would I need a round between .30-30 and .30-06??? .30-06 150grain can be pushed to 3,000 fps

Yep, and the .308 makes it at 2800 fps using the same bullet..........

Quote::
Didnt even have to rebarrel!
Of course not....... a .308 barrel is .308

The .308 Winchester is the sporting version of the 7.62MM NATO cartridge, which was originally called the T-65 cartridge in its experimental stage. Introduced by Winchester in their Model 70 bolt action and Model 88 lever action rifles in 1952, it was not adopted by the U.S. and NATO countries as a military cartridge until 1954.

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Handloader
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2006 9:41 pm    Post subject: Re: Newer and Better??? Reply with quote

Well, now, the ole 30-30, 308 and 06 are all great examples of standard cartrides that have been doing the job for years. Pick one, learn to use it within its limitations, and hunting is going to be grand.

Better yet, pick up three rifles chambered in each cartridge and just enjoy their distinctive and effective abilities.
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roklok
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2006 9:54 pm    Post subject: Re: Newer and Better??? Reply with quote

My point when I said about rebarreling was that the chamber dimensions were the same up until the point where the .308 was shortened,not bore diameter.I stand by the fact that it is simply a shortened '06.A different modification than necking one way or another but it is still based on the 30-06 case.Body about half an inch shorter,neck slightly shorter(about .05").
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Dimitri
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2006 10:00 pm    Post subject: Re: Newer and Better??? Reply with quote

Roklok,

To convert for the Navy M1's for 308 ammo they also inserted a insert into the chamber to make the ammo not blow in the 30-06 chamber thats why they didnt rebarrel. Smile

But I hear that it was dangrous since you wouldnt notice while shooting a rounds brass looking like a stright walled case while shooting when the insert poped out. Shocked

Dimitri

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1895ss
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2006 10:46 pm    Post subject: Re: Newer and Better??? Reply with quote

I actually read this some where some time ago........... the .308 Winchester is based on the T65 experimental cartridge, which is in turn based on the .300 Savage. Smile

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Last edited by 1895ss on Fri Mar 17, 2006 12:28 am; edited 1 time in total
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Dimitri
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2006 11:01 pm    Post subject: Re: Newer and Better??? Reply with quote

The 308 is a shorter version of the M1 Ball ammo. Smile

Quote::
In September 1945, after conducting preliminary tests to improve the M1 rifle, the U. S. Ordnance Technical Committee turned its attention to the development of a new and lighter rifle cartridge that would replace the .30 Caliber M2 round. This interest in a new cartridge was influenced by the battlefield success of the German 7.9mm Kurz, and Soviet adoption of their Kalashnikov light assault rifles using the new 7.62 x 39mm Model 43 intermediate power ammunition. As the development of the new U. S. service rifle cartidge progressed, however, traditionalism took hold as U. S. Army participants began to feel that the intermediate power ammuniton, used by the Soviets and the Germans, were too limited in their effective combat ranges and power to satisfy U. S. infantry requirements. The result was a compromise. The Ordnance Technical Committee came up with a shortened version of the old .30 caliber M2 cartidge.

The new cartridge, designated the 7.62 x 51mm T65, was not an intermediate power round. Although shorter by a half inch than the old Caliber .30 M2 round, it still propelled a 147 grain bullet at a muzzle velocity of 2,800 fps (848 mps) -- essentially identical to the old .30 Caliber M2 round. Newly developed ball powder allowed the use of smaller cartridge case to produce pressures and velocities identical to the old full power .30 Caliber M2 round.

The 308


The 300 Savage


The 30-06 Springfeild


Now what is the truth I dont know but I've got to admit I kinda belive the 30-06 story seeing as the diamentions are better fitting and the fact that the US Ordance Department was working with the M1 Garand to upgrade and was basing things on the M1 Ball for it Smile

Oh and alittle tid bit on my favorite rifle (Which I need to get somehow sooner then later 8)):

Quote::
One of such prototypes was the T20 ("T" means "test") of 1944. T20 was basically the M1 Garand rifle fitted with 20 rounds BAR magazine and with selective fire capability. This prototype latter evolved into the T37 rifle, which had gas cylinder moved back a little and was chambered for newest American prototype cartridge - T65. The T65 was no more than .30-06 case, shortened by 1/2 inch (12 mm), but retaining the original ballistic properties due to modern propellants used. It was slightly lighter and cheaper to made than .30-06, and has long effective range and good potential for accuracy, both desired by US Army. The idea of truly intermediate round was not acceptable to the US Military at that period. In the early 1950s T37 evolved into the T44 experimental rifle, which featured redesigned, self-regulated gas system with short stroke gas piston. Further development and tests lead to the slightly modified T44E4 and T44E5 (heavy barreled squad automatic weapon) prototypes, which were finally adopted by US Army as M14 and M15 rifles in the 1957.

Dimitri

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1895ss
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2006 11:03 pm    Post subject: Re: Newer and Better??? Reply with quote

Read it here.............. Kuhnhausen's .30 Cal. Service Rifle Shop Manual, p.36

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2006 11:16 pm    Post subject: Re: Newer and Better??? Reply with quote

I dont got that book Sad

Well I dont know this is the first time I heard about the 308 being based on the 300 Savage Shocked

Dimitri

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1895ss
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2006 11:24 pm    Post subject: Re: Newer and Better??? Reply with quote

Well it is certainly not based on the 30-06......... Smile

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Dimitri
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2006 11:27 pm    Post subject: Re: Newer and Better??? Reply with quote

1895,

You think so ?? Smile

Too bad I dont have a 30-06 round laying around to measure its diameter at 1.56 inches above its base to see if it is or not. That would slove it. Smile

To get a 308 from a 300 Savage you need to extend it so I wonder if the measurement at 1.56 inches from the 30-06 is the same as the measurement listed for the 308 just before the sholder (.454 of a inch). Confused

Dimitri

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1895ss
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2006 11:38 pm    Post subject: Re: Newer and Better??? Reply with quote

Dimitri wrote:
1895,

You think so ?? Smile

Too bad I dont have a 30-06 round laying around to measure its diameter at 1.56 inches above its base to see if it is or not. That would slove it. Smile Dimitri

I don't think you could solve it like that my friend.......... Smile read it.... Kuhnhausen's .30 Cal. Service Rifle Shop Manual, p.36

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terry264
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2006 12:13 am    Post subject: Re: Newer and Better??? Reply with quote

This cartridge was developed by the Ordnance Dept. of the U.S. Army in the 1940's through 50's under the name T-65. After extensive testing, it was to become the first NATO-adopted standard cartridge, the 7.62mm NATO, or 7.62x51mm NATO cartridge.

Winchester requested and received permission to introduce the cartridge commercially as the .308 Winchester. The result has been worldwide acceptance in a range of sporting firearms.

The military endeavor was to improve upon the .30-06 Springfield round, which had been in service since 1906 (or 1903 if one considers it's real origin as the .30-03). The result was a round of substantially less weight and size, while retaining the same bore diameter as well as only a negligible drop in ballistics (muzzle velocity was within 100 fps of the larger round).

The .308 has been neck-sized successfully to a variety of commercial calibers. These include the .243 Winchester, the 7mm-08 Remington and the .358 Winchester. All are excellent choices for short-action rifles, covering a wide-range of applications. BORROWED FROM ANOTHER GREAT-GREAT WEBSITE=Ammoguide.com
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