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lesterg3 Super Member


Joined: Nov 30, 2008 Posts: 1328 Location: Dixie
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Posted: Sun Feb 01, 2015 6:34 am Post subject: Re: Hating the .40 S&W? |
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Yep
_________________ "A democracy is nothing more than mob rule, where fifty-one percent of the people may take away the rights of the other forty-nine. "--Thomas Jefferson
The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government. -- Thomas Jefferson
"Americans have the right and advantage of being armed - unlike the citizens of other countries whose governments are afraid to trust the people with arms."--James Madison
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." Thomas Jefferson.
NRA Life Member
Vietnam War Vet 68-69 |
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Pumpkinslinger Super Member


Joined: Sep 22, 2007 Posts: 5052 Location: NC foothills
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Posted: Sun Feb 01, 2015 10:20 am Post subject: Re: Hating the .40 S&W? |
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I think Chambered hit one nail right on the head. When people compare "cartridges" they usually ignore the bullet type/construction. For example, Wikipedia has a table of 9x19mm loads that shows test results for different bullets. Note that the Winchester FMJ penetrates almost twice as far as a Speer Gold Dot JHP but the Speer bullet produces twice the "permanent cavity" volume. I admit that this isn't exactly an "apples to apples" comparison either because of differences in bullet weight and velocity.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...Parabellum
I've often wondered why the military isn't using a better bullet shape in their loads. From what I can tell the military loads all use a very pointed bullet. Why aren't they using a FMJ Flat Point, something like Winchester's ( www.midwayusa.com/prod...uctFinding )? It would have to improve terminal ballistics.
_________________ Mike
"I ain't no better than anybody else, and there ain't nobody better than me!" Ma Kettle |
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chambered221 Super Member


Joined: Aug 17, 2007 Posts: 3455 Location: Lost for good !!!
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Posted: Sun Feb 01, 2015 11:52 am Post subject: Re: Hating the .40 S&W? |
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Mike, I'm assuming that your familiar with the Hague Peace Conferences so that's probably not where you were going !!!
In those Declarations it's not the need to use FMJ's, it's more about not using bullets that expand or flatten easily in the human body.
For those that don't know, the US never signed on to this agreement but abides by it.
What they did sign on to was the unnecessary suffering portion of arms, projectiles and materials.
It's also my understanding that we need not apply any of this to the current counter terrorism operations. The Geneva Convention is about conventional warfare against standing state sponsored army's.
_________________ Ask as many people needed, sooner or later your question will be answered the way you want it answered !!!
A free people ought not only to be armed and disciplined, but they should have sufficient arms and ammunition to maintain a status of independence from any who might attempt to abuse them, which would include their own government.
~George Washington |
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PaulS Super Member


Joined: Feb 18, 2006 Posts: 4330 Location: South-Eastern Washington - the State
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Posted: Mon Feb 02, 2015 8:33 pm Post subject: Re: Hating the .40 S&W? |
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Any ammunition that caused undue tissue damage or some such BS.
I guess they didn't understand that guns are lethal under the right circumstances.
_________________ Paul
__________________
Speer, Lyman, Hodgdon, Sierra, and Hornady = reliable loading data
So and So's pages on the internet = NOT reliable loading data
Always check data against manuals
NEVER exceed maximum listed loads |
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Vince Site Admin


Joined: May 25, 2005 Posts: 15929 Location: Brisbane AUSTRALIA
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Bushmaster Super Member


Joined: Jun 12, 2005 Posts: 11452 Location: Ava, Missouri
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Posted: Tue Feb 03, 2015 9:42 am Post subject: Re: Hating the .40 S&W? |
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What's humane about killing anything? Enyone ever asked a deer what he/she thought?
Honey? Would you please pass the venison ribeye? Thanks...
_________________ I have one nerve left and yer standin' on it...
DEMOCRACY Two wolves and one sheep voting on what to have for lunch...
LIBERTY A well armed sheep contesting the outcome of the vote... |
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PaulS Super Member


Joined: Feb 18, 2006 Posts: 4330 Location: South-Eastern Washington - the State
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Posted: Tue Feb 03, 2015 1:03 pm Post subject: Re: Hating the .40 S&W? |
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Expanding bullets are more humane killers - so long as bullet placement is there.
When using full metal jacket the wounding channel is caused by tumbling and or the breakup of the bullet. Some of the monolithic bullets behave like FMJ too, on impact. There are a couple of reasons but the length of the bullet and marginal stabilization in rifles intended for jacketed lead bullets is the primary cause for poor performance in game.
The VLD bullets are the worst because the design requires a very long bullet for caliber in order to get the high ballistic coefficients. Using a 30 caliber VLD for hunting requires a 1: 8 twist or more. Using the Miller formula anything less than 1.2 is not likely to stabilize the VLD's on the way to the target and below 1.5 they are marginally stabile for long range target shooting. For hunting with the VLD's Miller recommends that you get a minimum of 1.8 and the higher the better. Jacketed lead bullets are stabile from 1.3 to 1.5.
The Miller formula takes temperature and barometric pressure into account and explains very well why some bullets are stable at low pressures and warm temps but not under high pressure and cold, dense air.
_________________ Paul
__________________
Speer, Lyman, Hodgdon, Sierra, and Hornady = reliable loading data
So and So's pages on the internet = NOT reliable loading data
Always check data against manuals
NEVER exceed maximum listed loads |
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chambered221 Super Member


Joined: Aug 17, 2007 Posts: 3455 Location: Lost for good !!!
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Posted: Tue Feb 03, 2015 3:47 pm Post subject: Re: Hating the .40 S&W? |
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Vince wrote: |
From memory, the gene a conventions came into being after the poms started using ammo made in India...dum dum I think the ammo was called. |
They were nothing more than a soft nose bullet with exposed lead core !!!
They were made at the Dum-Dum arsenal.......that's how they got their name.
_________________ Ask as many people needed, sooner or later your question will be answered the way you want it answered !!!
A free people ought not only to be armed and disciplined, but they should have sufficient arms and ammunition to maintain a status of independence from any who might attempt to abuse them, which would include their own government.
~George Washington |
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Bushmaster Super Member


Joined: Jun 12, 2005 Posts: 11452 Location: Ava, Missouri
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Posted: Tue Feb 03, 2015 8:26 pm Post subject: Re: Hating the .40 S&W? |
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_________________ I have one nerve left and yer standin' on it...
DEMOCRACY Two wolves and one sheep voting on what to have for lunch...
LIBERTY A well armed sheep contesting the outcome of the vote... |
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Pumpkinslinger Super Member


Joined: Sep 22, 2007 Posts: 5052 Location: NC foothills
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Posted: Wed Feb 04, 2015 4:10 pm Post subject: Re: Hating the .40 S&W? |
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"Expanding bullets were given the name Dum-dum, or dumdum, after an early British example produced in the Dum Dum Arsenal, near Calcutta, India by Captain Neville Bertie-Clay."
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...ing_bullet
From that same article:
"The Hague Convention of 1899, Declaration III prohibits the use of expanding bullets in international warfare."
Yep, my previous comment was directed at the Hague restrictions. Personally all of my "defensive" loads use hollow points (handgun) or soft points (rifle).
_________________ Mike
"I ain't no better than anybody else, and there ain't nobody better than me!" Ma Kettle |
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dhc4ever Super Member


Joined: May 26, 2011 Posts: 2944 Location: Ipswich, Queensland Australia
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Posted: Thu Feb 05, 2015 2:18 am Post subject: Re: Hating the .40 S&W? |
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The whole idea of modern warfare is to make war with others uneconimical, you do this by WOUNDING their soldiers, this then takes 10 people to look after them. This is why the civilised world now uses 5.56 mm. This only works against otherwise civalised nations.
If you you are against muslims or fanatics, you go up a few steps in caliber like .308, .338 or .500 caliber or you use softpoint to blow the biggest holes in them you can which will be hopefully fatal.
The hague conventions also prohibute shotguns. Perhaps thats why we have so many peace making and local insurgencies....
_________________ Pete
Dont do anything you wont like explaining to the paramedics.............. |
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RePete Super Member


Joined: Aug 15, 2005 Posts: 1044 Location: Gods Country
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Posted: Thu Feb 05, 2015 5:07 am Post subject: Re: Hating the .40 S&W? |
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What a thread drift. From I hate the 40S&W to ballistics.
I like the 40S&W. It easily makes major so in competition you can shoot the same gun, albeit with a spring change, in minor and major . I find it controllable especially when downloaded to minor.
I carried and used a 9mm for a number years, so a 40 isn't a problem.
_________________ Proud member of the WTFDTSG Club.
Stercus Accidit = Sh*t Happens in Latin.
Nice try = You Suck spelled different.
My parents spanked me as a child. As a result, I now suffer from a psychological condition known as RESPECT FOR OTHERS. |
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inthedark Super Member


Joined: Jan 31, 2011 Posts: 921 Location: Ontario
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Posted: Thu Feb 05, 2015 9:11 am Post subject: Re: Hating the .40 S&W? |
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_________________ Chimo
Ron
War is sweet to those who have no experience of it, but the experienced man trembles exceedingly at heart on its approach - Pindar 518-438 BC
Be Copy now of Men of Grosser Blood and TEACH THEM HOW TO WAR |
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Bushmaster Super Member


Joined: Jun 12, 2005 Posts: 11452 Location: Ava, Missouri
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Posted: Thu Feb 05, 2015 11:34 am Post subject: Re: Hating the .40 S&W? |
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What ever happened to the .40 S&W?
_________________ I have one nerve left and yer standin' on it...
DEMOCRACY Two wolves and one sheep voting on what to have for lunch...
LIBERTY A well armed sheep contesting the outcome of the vote... |
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inthedark Super Member


Joined: Jan 31, 2011 Posts: 921 Location: Ontario
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