HuntingNut
HuntingNut
   Login or Register
HomeCommunity ForumsPhoto AlbumsRegister
     
 

User Info

Welcome Anonymous


Membership:
Latest: RichardZ
New Today: 0
New Yesterday: 0
Overall: 13126

People Online:
Members: 0
Visitors: 364
BOT: 0
Total: 364
Who Is Where:
 Visitors:
01: Home
02: Forums
03: Forums
04: Forums
05: Forums
06: Forums
07: Forums
08: Photo Albums
09: Forums
10: Forums
11: Photo Albums
12: Forums
13: Photo Albums
14: Forums
15: Forums
16: Your Account
17: Photo Albums
18: Forums
19: Forums
20: Forums
21: Forums
22: Forums
23: Forums
24: Forums
25: Home
26: Forums
27: Forums
28: Forums
29: Forums
30: Forums
31: Forums
32: Home
33: Your Account
34: Forums
35: Forums
36: Forums
37: Home
38: Home
39: Your Account
40: Forums
41: Forums
42: Forums
43: Forums
44: Forums
45: Forums
46: Forums
47: Forums
48: Forums
49: Forums
50: Your Account
51: Photo Albums
52: Forums
53: Forums
54: Forums
55: Your Account
56: Forums
57: Forums
58: Forums
59: Forums
60: Forums
61: Forums
62: Home
63: Forums
64: Your Account
65: Forums
66: Forums
67: Forums
68: Forums
69: Forums
70: Forums
71: Forums
72: Forums
73: Forums
74: Your Account
75: Forums
76: Forums
77: Forums
78: Forums
79: Forums
80: News
81: Forums
82: Your Account
83: Forums
84: Your Account
85: Home
86: Forums
87: Photo Albums
88: Forums
89: Forums
90: Your Account
91: Forums
92: Forums
93: Home
94: Home
95: Forums
96: Forums
97: Forums
98: Forums
99: Forums
100: Forums
101: Forums
102: Your Account
103: Forums
104: Forums
105: Forums
106: Forums
107: Forums
108: Forums
109: Forums
110: Your Account
111: Forums
112: Forums
113: Photo Albums
114: Forums
115: Forums
116: Home
117: Your Account
118: Forums
119: Forums
120: Home
121: Forums
122: Your Account
123: Forums
124: Forums
125: Forums
126: Forums
127: Forums
128: Forums
129: Forums
130: Your Account
131: Forums
132: Forums
133: Forums
134: Your Account
135: Forums
136: Forums
137: Home
138: Forums
139: Home
140: Forums
141: Forums
142: Forums
143: Forums
144: Forums
145: Photo Albums
146: Forums
147: Your Account
148: Home
149: Forums
150: Forums
151: Forums
152: Forums
153: Forums
154: Home
155: Forums
156: Photo Albums
157: Forums
158: Forums
159: Forums
160: Forums
161: Forums
162: Forums
163: Forums
164: Forums
165: Forums
166: Your Account
167: Forums
168: Forums
169: Forums
170: Forums
171: Forums
172: Home
173: Forums
174: Forums
175: Forums
176: Your Account
177: Forums
178: Articles: Submit New
179: Photo Albums
180: Forums
181: Forums
182: Photo Albums
183: Forums
184: Home
185: Forums
186: Photo Albums
187: Forums
188: Your Account
189: Home
190: Forums
191: Forums
192: Your Account
193: Forums
194: Photo Albums
195: Home
196: Forums
197: Home
198: Forums
199: Your Account
200: Forums
201: Forums
202: Forums
203: Forums
204: Your Account
205: Home
206: Forums
207: Forums
208: Forums
209: Forums
210: Your Account
211: Forums
212: Forums
213: Forums
214: Forums
215: Forums
216: Forums
217: Forums
218: Forums
219: Home
220: Forums
221: Home
222: Forums
223: Your Account
224: Home
225: Home
226: Home
227: Forums
228: Forums
229: Home
230: Forums
231: Forums
232: Home
233: Forums
234: Forums
235: Forums
236: Forums
237: Your Account
238: Forums
239: Forums
240: Forums
241: Your Account
242: Photo Albums
243: Forums
244: Forums
245: Home
246: Home
247: Forums
248: Home
249: Forums
250: Your Account
251: Your Account
252: Home
253: Forums
254: Home
255: Forums
256: Forums
257: Forums
258: Forums
259: Forums
260: Forums
261: Forums
262: Forums
263: Forums
264: Forums
265: Photo Albums
266: Forums
267: Your Account
268: Your Account
269: Forums
270: Home
271: Your Account
272: Forums
273: Forums
274: Photo Albums
275: Forums
276: Forums
277: Forums
278: Forums
279: Forums
280: Forums
281: Forums
282: Home
283: Your Account
284: Forums
285: Home
286: Photo Albums
287: Forums
288: Forums
289: Forums
290: Forums
291: Forums
292: Forums
293: Home
294: Your Account
295: Forums
296: Your Account
297: Your Account
298: Your Account
299: Forums
300: Forums
301: Your Account
302: Forums
303: Forums
304: Photo Albums
305: Forums
306: Forums
307: Forums
308: Forums
309: Home
310: Home
311: Home
312: Forums
313: Your Account
314: Forums
315: Forums
316: Forums
317: Forums
318: Forums
319: Forums
320: Forums
321: Forums
322: Photo Albums
323: Your Account
324: Forums
325: Forums
326: Forums
327: Forums
328: Forums
329: Forums
330: Your Account
331: Forums
332: Home
333: Forums
334: Forums
335: Your Account
336: Home
337: Photo Albums
338: Forums
339: Home
340: Your Account
341: Home
342: Your Account
343: Forums
344: Photo Albums
345: Photo Albums
346: Forums
347: Home
348: Home
349: Photo Albums
350: Home
351: Forums
352: Your Account
353: Photo Albums
354: Forums
355: Forums
356: Forums
357: Forums
358: Forums
359: Forums
360: Forums
361: Forums
362: Home
363: Forums
364: Home

Staff Online:

No staff members are online!
 

Coppermine Stats
Photo Albums
 Albums: 308
 Pictures: 2451
  · Views: 820725
  · Votes: 1316
  · Comments: 86
 

Recoil Reduction For Load Development
Discussion regarding the reloading of ammunition and tuning of loads for accuracy
Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next
Post new topic   Reply to topic   Printer Friendly Page    Forum Index » Reloading Ammunition

View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Grumulkin
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: Apr 16, 2007
Posts: 365
Location: Central Ohio

PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2017 1:48 am    Post subject: Re: Recoil Reduction For Load Development Reply with quote

hunterjoe21 wrote:
Thoughts here on using recoil reducing "devices" while in the load development stage...

I am working on loads for the 300 Win Mag. The last time I had it to the range, I started to notice the recoil after about 30 rounds and thought that I should have used something like Caldwell's Lead Sled. After some online research, I found several instances where folks have claimed that the use of such devices has resulted in broken stocks, scopes out of alignment or damaged, etc.

I would only use something like this for load development. Once I have a that part of the equation worked out, any practice, scope adjustments, final sighting adjustments would be with the rifle fired from the shoulder.

My, there is certainly a whole list of recommendations so I'll throw some in there.

1. I'm not sure why you only had 100 to 200 yard shots in Ohio. I live there and a 300 to 400 yard shot on my farm isn't that rare.

2. I had a Lead Sled for awhile but got rid of it because I found I didn't need it and I thought the possible broken stock scenario was realistic.

3. When I started shooting centerfires, I thought 308 Winchester recoil was pretty bad. I can now shoot 20 rounds of full power 460 Weatherby cartridges loaded with 500 grain bullets off the bench with no Lead Sled and no problem. It is possible to build up recoil tolerance. A martial arts class with some firm contact sparring would help (yea, really).

4. I fail to see why people buy the big guns and then immediately ask about reduced loads, cast bullet loads, etc. It's like castrating your prized breeding bull. A 7mm Remington Magnum would reach out just as far and kill just as well as a 300 Winchester Magnum with less recoil. Even lesser cartridges are sufficient for most game in North America.

5. Consider a muzzle brake (my 458 Lott, 378 Weatherby, 300 Winchester Magnum, etc. don't have them) if you need one or, the best of both worlds, a suppressor.

6. Your plan to do final scope adjustments from the shoulder is a bad one. You need to sight in from the bench then do all the off hand practice you like. Really, it will work. Furthermore, if your plan is to take 300 and 400 yard shots off hand from the shoulder, you won't do well unless you're a lot better than I am. For shots at that range, you'll need a very good rest; kind of like bench rest shooting.

7. I think reduced loads for practice is also a bad idea. With a particular bullet and powder, there will be an optimal powder weight for best accuracy and that will not come at the reduced load. In addition, if the gun is too uncomfortable to shoot for practice with the loads you intend to use for hunting, you shouldn't be using it/them.
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website
chambered221
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: Aug 17, 2007
Posts: 3455
Location: Lost for good !!!

PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2017 2:12 pm    Post subject: Re: Recoil Reduction For Load Development Reply with quote

The key to using a leadsled is to not use so much weight that there is no give!!!

If the gun is strapped in or held too tightly the energy will have no where to go and something is going to break.

When we use the sled I adjust the amount of weight for the cartridge we're shooting. I allow some recoil to push the sled into my shoulder and allow the muzzle to jump the same as it would if I were shooting from sandbags.

It’s a great tool but I do prefer my final sight in to be done on the bags. POI will usually change.

_________________
Ask as many people needed, sooner or later your question will be answered the way you want it answered !!!

A free people ought not only to be armed and disciplined, but they should have sufficient arms and ammunition to maintain a status of independence from any who might attempt to abuse them, which would include their own government.
~George Washington
Back to top
View user's profile Photo Gallery
hunterjoe21
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: Mar 30, 2007
Posts: 1486
Location: Miles City, Montana

PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2017 8:42 pm    Post subject: Re: Recoil Reduction For Load Development Reply with quote

Grumulkin wrote:
hunterjoe21 wrote:
Thoughts here on using recoil reducing "devices" while in the load development stage...

I am working on loads for the 300 Win Mag. The last time I had it to the range, I started to notice the recoil after about 30 rounds and thought that I should have used something like Caldwell's Lead Sled. After some online research, I found several instances where folks have claimed that the use of such devices has resulted in broken stocks, scopes out of alignment or damaged, etc.

I would only use something like this for load development. Once I have a that part of the equation worked out, any practice, scope adjustments, final sighting adjustments would be with the rifle fired from the shoulder.

My, there is certainly a whole list of recommendations so I'll throw some in there.

1. I'm not sure why you only had 100 to 200 yard shots in Ohio. I live there and a 300 to 400 yard shot on my farm isn't that rare.

2. I had a Lead Sled for awhile but got rid of it because I found I didn't need it and I thought the possible broken stock scenario was realistic.

3. When I started shooting centerfires, I thought 308 Winchester recoil was pretty bad. I can now shoot 20 rounds of full power 460 Weatherby cartridges loaded with 500 grain bullets off the bench with no Lead Sled and no problem. It is possible to build up recoil tolerance. A martial arts class with some firm contact sparring would help (yea, really).

4. I fail to see why people buy the big guns and then immediately ask about reduced loads, cast bullet loads, etc. It's like castrating your prized breeding bull. A 7mm Remington Magnum would reach out just as far and kill just as well as a 300 Winchester Magnum with less recoil. Even lesser cartridges are sufficient for most game in North America.

5. Consider a muzzle brake (my 458 Lott, 378 Weatherby, 300 Winchester Magnum, etc. don't have them) if you need one or, the best of both worlds, a suppressor.

6. Your plan to do final scope adjustments from the shoulder is a bad one. You need to sight in from the bench then do all the off hand practice you like. Really, it will work. Furthermore, if your plan is to take 300 and 400 yard shots off hand from the shoulder, you won't do well unless you're a lot better than I am. For shots at that range, you'll need a very good rest; kind of like bench rest shooting.

7. I think reduced loads for practice is also a bad idea. With a particular bullet and powder, there will be an optimal powder weight for best accuracy and that will not come at the reduced load. In addition, if the gun is too uncomfortable to shoot for practice with the loads you intend to use for hunting, you shouldn't be using it/them.

Maybe I should preface my comments on hunting in Ohio with "from my experience"...

In Ashtabula County, where I lived and hunted for years, once the shooting started on opening day the deer headed for the thickest, nastiest stuff they could find. They would hold in the creek bottoms that were chocked with multiflora rose until someone pushed them out or they got hungry. Stuff so thick that you could (if you had the nerve to go in there) literally walk past them at 10 feet and never know they were there. I've had many occasions where they jumped and ran once I went past. Other times I've walked nearly in arms reach, but found that as long as you don't make eye contact, they will stay there thinking you didn't see them. I've killed my fair share by walking past them and shooting them where they hide. Part of the problem with that particular part of the state is the sheer number of hunters in the woods trying to fill their freezer in a 1 week plus 2 day hunting season. Opening day is closed for the school kids, the Amish Orange Army is on the move, and the close proximity to Cleveland tends to lead to WAY too many people wandering around and most of them couldn't care less about property boundaries. It's all part of the reason I couldn't wait to leave once I had the chance.

_________________
My 1911 is more effective than your 911.
Back to top
View user's profile
hunterjoe21
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: Mar 30, 2007
Posts: 1486
Location: Miles City, Montana

PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2017 8:45 pm    Post subject: Re: Recoil Reduction For Load Development Reply with quote

Also, "On My Farm" makes a huge difference...

What are you shooting them with at 300-400 yards??

Just curious.

_________________
My 1911 is more effective than your 911.


Last edited by hunterjoe21 on Fri Jan 27, 2017 9:35 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile
hunterjoe21
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: Mar 30, 2007
Posts: 1486
Location: Miles City, Montana

PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2017 9:01 pm    Post subject: Re: Recoil Reduction For Load Development Reply with quote

Maybe I should reset this to zero...

My original question was regarding the use of recoil reducing devices for load development. Once I have a load that performs to my specs, any further use of this device would cease. It is merely an effort to reduce, as much as possible, human error in order to start off with the most accurate load I can.

_________________
My 1911 is more effective than your 911.
Back to top
View user's profile
hunterjoe21
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: Mar 30, 2007
Posts: 1486
Location: Miles City, Montana

PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2017 9:02 pm    Post subject: Re: Recoil Reduction For Load Development Reply with quote

chambered221 wrote:
The key to using a leadsled is to not use so much weight that there is no give!!!

If the gun is strapped in or held too tightly the energy will have no where to go and something is going to break.

When we use the sled I adjust the amount of weight for the cartridge we're shooting. I allow some recoil to push the sled into my shoulder and allow the muzzle to jump the same as it would if I were shooting from sandbags.

It’s a great tool but I do prefer my final sight in to be done on the bags. POI will usually change.

Thank You

_________________
My 1911 is more effective than your 911.
Back to top
View user's profile
Grumulkin
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: Apr 16, 2007
Posts: 365
Location: Central Ohio

PostPosted: Sat Jan 28, 2017 12:34 pm    Post subject: Re: Recoil Reduction For Load Development Reply with quote

hunterjoe21 wrote:
Also, "On My Farm" makes a huge difference...

What are you shooting them with at 300-400 yards??

Just curious.

A 270 Winchester has worked as well as anything. I've also used a 300 Winchester Magnum, a 25-06, a 22-250 and a 300 Weatherby Magnum.



I used a 204 Ruger on the one above but that deer was only 252 yards away. I have broken the 300 yard mark with the 204 Ruger on crow, raccoon and coyote.

The flaw in the plan to use less weight on a Lead Sled so it can push into your shoulder a bit is that the Lead Sled will move on the bench and you'll have to reposition it. If the lead sled doesn't move at all, because of your shoulder or added weight, the result as far as broken stocks go is EXACTLY the same.
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website
Elvis
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: Jul 27, 2008
Posts: 9239
Location: south island New Zealand

PostPosted: Sat Jan 28, 2017 9:40 pm    Post subject: Re: Recoil Reduction For Load Development Reply with quote

tell you one thing for nothing..... light loads of trail boss powder might not be the best training tool, but they sure as heck are fun to use,and very very efficent to go with it.
eg my pet load is a 151grn cast with a HUGE hollow point (same as winchester powerpoint .22lr) std primer and 4.1 grns yes thats not a typo..4.1 grns of powder in a 7.62x39mm case
the projectiles are $15 per hundred so its costing me slightly more than .22lr to run but less than anything else by a country mile
today 3 shots all at 40-50 yards resulted in 3 hogget (between 1-2 year old) sheep suffering terminal headaches and the ladies sitting 20 yards behind me having cuppa teas hardly even heard the shots!!!!
I reckon shooting a nice light load like that is great for the confidence...and another great use is for finishing off game....no need for a great walloping load. just a mild phhhhiiit into top of neck or head.

_________________
You shot it You pluck it !
Them who eats the most duck eats the most feathers!
Back to top
View user's profile
hunterjoe21
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: Mar 30, 2007
Posts: 1486
Location: Miles City, Montana

PostPosted: Sat Jan 28, 2017 10:05 pm    Post subject: Re: Recoil Reduction For Load Development Reply with quote

Grumulkin wrote:
hunterjoe21 wrote:
Also, "On My Farm" makes a huge difference...

What are you shooting them with at 300-400 yards??

Just curious.

A 270 Winchester has worked as well as anything. I've also used a 300 Winchester Magnum, a 25-06, a 22-250 and a 300 Weatherby Magnum.



I used a 204 Ruger on the one above but that deer was only 252 yards away. I have broken the 300 yard mark with the 204 Ruger on crow, raccoon and coyote.]


The flaw in the plan to use less weight on a Lead Sled so it can push into your shoulder a bit is that the Lead Sled will move on the bench and you'll have to reposition it. If the lead sled doesn't move at all, because of your shoulder or added weight, the result as far as broken stocks go is EXACTLY the same.

You're shooting deer in Ohio with a center fire rifle???

_________________
My 1911 is more effective than your 911.
Back to top
View user's profile
Grumulkin
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: Apr 16, 2007
Posts: 365
Location: Central Ohio

PostPosted: Sun Jan 29, 2017 12:29 am    Post subject: Re: Recoil Reduction For Load Development Reply with quote

Yea; nuisance permits.
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website
chambered221
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: Aug 17, 2007
Posts: 3455
Location: Lost for good !!!

PostPosted: Sun Jan 29, 2017 8:15 am    Post subject: Re: Recoil Reduction For Load Development Reply with quote

The question originally asked in this thread was about the usage of a product and it's relationship to breaking things !!!
Not what's the best bench rest set up/technique for winning a match at the pro level.
I doubt anyone looking to compete in a competitive discipline would even consider the lead sled. As I stated earlier it's a tool. A tool for those of us who need something to help manage recoil. The reason we might need it is irrelevant and we don't need/want to be lectured to about it.

With everything in life there are pros and cons. You/I must evaluate the facts and make a decision based upon what's best for me not you.

I developed a load for my dad's 7mm Weatherby mag using the lead sled. The best load we got was pushing 1.5 moa. Better than dad ever did in the past with that gun. After sighting in off a traditional tripod and bag set up I quickly discovered the load shot closers to to 1 moa
The moral of the story..... without the sled we would have never found the guns best potential regardless of it's flaws.

_________________
Ask as many people needed, sooner or later your question will be answered the way you want it answered !!!

A free people ought not only to be armed and disciplined, but they should have sufficient arms and ammunition to maintain a status of independence from any who might attempt to abuse them, which would include their own government.
~George Washington
Back to top
View user's profile Photo Gallery
hunterjoe21
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: Mar 30, 2007
Posts: 1486
Location: Miles City, Montana

PostPosted: Sun Jan 29, 2017 3:36 pm    Post subject: Re: Recoil Reduction For Load Development Reply with quote

Grumulkin wrote:
Yea; nuisance permits.

I thought that might be what you were referring to, but in all reality is a whole different conversation.

That would be similar to asking me why I'm having trouble hitting a running rabbit at 25 yards with a slingshot since you can shoot pop cans all day at 50 yards with your .22.

_________________
My 1911 is more effective than your 911.
Back to top
View user's profile
hunterjoe21
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: Mar 30, 2007
Posts: 1486
Location: Miles City, Montana

PostPosted: Sun Jan 29, 2017 7:20 pm    Post subject: Re: Recoil Reduction For Load Development Reply with quote

chambered221 wrote:
The question originally asked in this thread was about the usage of a product and it's relationship to breaking things !!!
Not what's the best bench rest set up/technique for winning a match at the pro level.
I doubt anyone looking to compete in a competitive discipline would even consider the lead sled. As I stated earlier it's a tool. A tool for those of us who need something to help manage recoil. The reason we might need it is irrelevant and we don't need/want to be lectured to about it.

With everything in life there are pros and cons. You/I must evaluate the facts and make a decision based upon what's best for me not you.

I developed a load for my dad's 7mm Weatherby mag using the lead sled. The best load we got was pushing 1.5 moa. Better than dad ever did in the past with that gun. After sighting in off a traditional tripod and bag set up I quickly discovered the load shot closers to to 1 moa
The moral of the story..... without the sled we would have never found the guns best potential regardless of it's flaws.

Chambered,

Which version of the Lead Sled do you have?

The newest one I've seen is the DFT, which weighs over 20 pounds. I'm thinking that I may not need to add any weight if I decide to go this route. It also comes in around $10/pound!!

_________________
My 1911 is more effective than your 911.
Back to top
View user's profile
chambered221
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: Aug 17, 2007
Posts: 3455
Location: Lost for good !!!

PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2017 2:12 pm    Post subject: Re: Recoil Reduction For Load Development Reply with quote

The original model that was first introduced !!!

_________________
Ask as many people needed, sooner or later your question will be answered the way you want it answered !!!

A free people ought not only to be armed and disciplined, but they should have sufficient arms and ammunition to maintain a status of independence from any who might attempt to abuse them, which would include their own government.
~George Washington
Back to top
View user's profile Photo Gallery
hunterjoe21
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: Mar 30, 2007
Posts: 1486
Location: Miles City, Montana

PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2017 1:56 am    Post subject: Re: Recoil Reduction For Load Development Reply with quote

slimjim wrote:
hunterjoe21 wrote:
My original intent was to work up a load using a Barnes 165 gr TTSX. They seem to be almost impossible to find though. No one around here stocks them (168 grain TSX's are everywhere), but I remember reading somewhere that the 165 TTSX/TSX was developed with the .300 Win Mag in mind.

The.300 Win Mag was SAMMI'd back when bullets didn't have longer ogives. The 165 TTSX fits the SAMMI COAL. The ogive on the 168 TTSX is longer like more modern bullets. Magazine length in some .300 WM are often longer to accommodate modern low-drag bullets. You might be able to fit the 168 TTSX in your action if your magazine is long enough. The 168 expands slightly better than the 165.

I grabbed a box each of the 168 gr TTSX and TSX recently. Using the TTSX and Hornady (Stoney Point) comparator, I found that the closest I could get to the lands based on the magazine length is a.160 "jump". Barnes recommends a jump of .050, so I pretty sure these aren't gonna work for me. I'm thinking that the 165's are probably a better fit. I didn't have a chance to measure the TSX's yet, but the results probably aren't too different.

_________________
My 1911 is more effective than your 911.
Back to top
View user's profile
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic   Printer Friendly Page    Forum Index » Reloading Ammunition
Page 3 of 4
All times are GMT - 7 Hours
Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next



Jump to:  


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum


Valid CSS! Valid HTML 4.01!
Click to check if this page is realy HTML 4.01 compliant for speed :)

All logos and trademarks in this site are property of HuntingNut.com.
The comments are property of their posters, all the rest © 2011 by HuntingNut.com
Interactive software released under GNU GPL, Code Credits, Privacy Policy

.: Upgraded to DragonFly 9.2 by *Dizfunkshunal* :.