always found 2209 worked better in my 243s than 08

later
p

Thanks for the info Chris.

Had never heard of the Ladder Method before, it looks like it is a good method to determine a start point for fine tuning. The OCW method appears similar as well.

I will revisit my reloading bench tomorrow and put together a series of loads at .3 of a grain increments.

Once agin, thanks mate, very much appreciated.

Cheers, Vince

Vince, the load I found that gives me groups of 1.5 inches @ 200 yards is: Winchester brass, 70 grn Speer HP MHP over 39.5 grns of Varget, 200 CCI Large Rifle primer. The rifle is a Savage model 10 with harris bipod & scoped. That's my varmint gun & wouldn't consider a heavier bullet since that's all I use it for.

Keep it coming...

ogre wrote:

always found 2209 worked better in my 243s than 08 later p

Thanks ogre. I am using 2209 for 100gn proj, but I am trying to reduce my reloading to one powder.....2208 for both .243 and 30.30. I understand that I will no doubt have to compromise a liitle but I am having some issues with the Remington 80 gn PSP. The Hornady 70 gn SP is shooting a treat using the 2208.

Popgun has suggested the Ladder method which I am going to try to see if I can identify a load that will work with the Remingto 80 gn proj.

Whichever way it goes I am going to have a good time developing and testing which is what I believe this sport is all about.....enjoyment.

Cheers, Vince

when I used the ladder method I also used a thermometer to register the temp of the barrel- if you wait for the barrel to be completely cold before you take the next shot a 30 shot string takes about 5 hours.

I used a temp of either 35 or 40 degrees for the barrel temp as the temp thet the barrel has to be below before taking the next shot- I think it was 40.

it brings some more control to the shot string and it tries to remove another variable from the test.

At work right now - will write more latter if you want- also will have a chance to look in my diary to see correct figures.

later
p

Vince,
OCW is a take off on the Audett Ladder Method. Both make sense but the Ladder uses less rounds. The critical thing is a good rest and consistant shooting technique so that your shots all tell you something. That is where the OCW method comes in handy. OCW gives you more shots to help locate the sweet spot while shooting round robbin.
Let us know what results you get.

Thanks ogre and Chris.

I won't be able to get to the range for a couple of weeks, but when I do I will be bringing all targets and data home with me so I can analyse it. I will be able to let you know then how things stand.

I just hope that the problem lies with the one variable I little or no control over........my Weatherby not liking the Remington 80 gn PSP. If this is the case I am back to square 1 looking for another bullet. Oh well, all part of the fun of hand loading.

Cheers, Vince

Well, finally got out to the range and did some testing with the following results.

The rounds "patterned" more like a shotgun that in a vertical string, which is more or less what I expected. As can be seen there are a couple of shots, #5 and #6, that I intend to investigate further. I know that 2 shots is not really enough to say the test was successful, but further testing should produce more conclusive results.

I suppose that shooting just under 200 12g rounds smashing clays about an hour before beginning the testing probably didn't help.

Anyway...back to the drawing board.

Cheers, Vince

Interesting group/pattern. I have loaded up some rounds for my 30/30 to see how it works, but have not had the chance to try them. I hope mine group a little better or we should change it from the ladder to scatter method.

kbis wrote:

Interesting group/pattern. I have loaded up some rounds for my 30/30 to see how it works, but have not had the chance to try them. I hope mine group a little better or we should change it from the ladder to scatter method.

Gidday kbis. Bear in mind mate that the powder charge for round #1 is 36 grains of AN2208 (Varget) with each successive round the charge being increased by .3 grain up to the maximum load of 38.5 grains in round #10.

As I said, I didn't expect to see as large a lateral spread as there is, although I did expect the vertical stringing.

I'm still trying to decide which ones of the loads I am going to test further.

Cheers, Vince

Ok, a mate and I spent a couple of hours and a few beers worth analysing the target above....took varying things into consdieration....me being a little tired after shooting the clays, very humid although overcast weather, a slight crosswind that was very intermittent as to when it came through and how far down range, my lack of physical fitness, I was also acting as Range Officer (yeah yeah..I know excuses excuses excuses)...but anyway, we have come up with a load to start further testing.

First thing we did was convert the lateral spread to a single vertical line, then measured the distance between shots ie, 1 to 2 to 3 etc. We then looked at the charge for those shots that appeared to form a group of sorts. Shots #4, #5, #6 and #7 looked promising so they were the shots we used as a start point. After analysing everything we came up with a start load of 37.3gn. I will now load 3 shots of 37.1gn, 37.2gn, 37.3gn, 37.4gn and 37.5gn then shoot each of these for group.

I anticipate that my load will be in the 37.2gn - 37.4gn range.

I'm not necessarily looking at 1/2MOA.....just "Minute Of Deer". I will be happy with up to 1.5 - 2 MOA at 100m.

Cheers, Vince

Vince,
What is the rifle make & Model and do you have the rifle glass bedded? Also are you using a good quality front adjustable rest and rear bunney ears bag?
When you shoot again if you have a 200 yd/Meter range use that and it will give you a good picture of the loads using the Audette Ladder Method. I'm looking forward to your next test because the first firing seems to be all over the place. You should see a progression of lower left to upper right. Also fire a couple of foulers first. All of your previous excuses are valid and could have caused the shotgun effect. On the next test try to make this your first shooting of the day and hopefully a calm wind day too. Shoot early.

popgun wrote:

Vince, What is the rifle make & Model and do you have the rifle glass bedded? Also are you using a good quality front adjustable rest and rear bunney ears bag? When you shoot again if you have a 200 yd/Meter range use that and it will give you a good picture of the loads using the Audette Ladder Method. I'm looking forward to your next test because the first firing seems to be all over the place. You should see a progression of lower left to upper right. Also fire a couple of foulers first. All of your previous excuses are valid and could have caused the shotgun effect. On the next test try to make this your first shooting of the day and hopefully a calm wind day too. Shoot early.

Gidday Chris. My rifle is a Weatherby synthetic stocked Vanguard, and the stock isn't glass bedded. I have kicked the idea around of pillar bedding it. I used a good quality although home made rest and a contoured (bunny ears) rear bag as well.

Next time I get out to the range I will shoot at both 100m and 200m and also make it the first shoot for the day. Hopefully I will get a more useful result. If need be I will also get my mate to fire a set as well cause he's a bloody good shot...much better than me.

Cheers, Vince

Hello Vince,
Interesting reading about your exploits to get your .243 to shoot tighter groups. Like alot of other folks I've been down that road a few time myself. I take it that this rifle probably has never shot very tight groups with any bullet, powder combination. One can spend alot of time and powder trying to develop a load for a rifle that that won't shoot very accurate to start with. I'll take the liberty here to throw in my 2 cents worth of what seems to work for me in a situation similar to yours.
First off is trigger pull. What's yours? Alot of rifles have trigger pulls in excess of 6 lbs. 1.5-3.0 would be a much better range. Alot of rifles are forend sensitive to pressure. Need to play around with the torque on the action screws. In the case of one of my Rugers, placing a small piece of tablet cardboard under the barrel on the forend make all the difference.
If that doesn't work, then I take a dremel tool to the stock and free-float the barrel. What's the condition of your barrel, does it copper foul alot or is it copper fouled. If you bought it used, it may require a good copper removal. I've found that correcting these three items have dramatically improved my groups. Good Luck with your project.--tr

moose2 wrote:

Hello Vince, Interesting reading about your exploits to get your .243 to shoot tighter groups. Like alot of other folks I've been down that road a few time myself. I take it that this rifle probably has never shot very tight groups with any bullet, powder combination. One can spend alot of time and powder trying to develop a load for a rifle that that won't shoot very accurate to start with. I'll take the liberty here to throw in my 2 cents worth of what seems to work for me in a situation similar to yours. First off is trigger pull. What's yours? Alot of rifles have trigger pulls in excess of 6 lbs. 1.5-3.0 would be a much better range. Alot of rifles are forend sensitive to pressure. Need to play around with the torque on the action screws. In the case of one of my Rugers, placing a small piece of tablet cardboard under the barrel on the forend make all the difference. If that doesn't work, then I take a dremel tool to the stock and free-float the barrel. What's the condition of your barrel, does it copper foul alot or is it copper fouled. If you bought it used, it may require a good copper removal. I've found that correcting these three items have dramatically improved my groups. Good Luck with your project.--tr

Gidday Moose2. Thanks for the advice mate.

My rifle was purchased new and to date has shot magnificently. Thumbnail size groups at 100m using Hornady 70 gn bullets. I have decided to step up to the 80gn Remington PSP for better terminal performance.

Haven't had a problem with fouling....I clean thoroughly using Sweets and finish up with Nycolube oil.

I haven't done anything to the stock.....some would say leave it alone. The stock is the last thing I will look at. The first will be the change of load.

I did notice that the trigger had a bit of creep in it when I was squeezing it very slowly, maybe that is part of the problem....will have a look at that.

I have the figures for the torquing of the screws that attach the stock to the action....will have to check that as well.

I really think that the problem lies with the new load...and me of course. I will reshoot using the old load to check that nothing has gone astray with my rifle.

Oh well, as frustrating as it is, it is still enjoyable and fun trying to sort it out.

Cheers, Vince