Pete, you have to make the difference in blackpowder and smokeless for the kind of wax used. ALOX and that hard wax is OK for smokeless, but doesn't keep the foiling soft when BP is used.

And I can understand that you buy waxed wads, but I live in the land of beer, so beer-cards are more available and are easely transformed into waxed wads. Besides: when you collect some beer-card and buy a set of punches, you always have wads available in all kind of calibers (and cheap).
I learned that trick from the manual of my front-loader Parker Hale Volunteer. These rifles were supplied with a bullet-mould and -sizer AND the punch needed. They recommend to load BP / over-powder waxed card / soft lead bullet sized to .458"
I've tried that same bullet in the 45/70, but not with great succes.

BTW: for targetshooting it's OK to look for harder bullets, for hunting it's better to use soft ones. (and the soft bullets usually ask for BP or its equivalents)

And I see advices for loading... please take also into account the use of gass-checks or not. They do make much difference.
And as Elvis allready mentioned: pay attention to the base of the bullet! The front will allow much more differences than the base and when you ruin the base while seating the bullet...

Emphasizing what Aloys just said, the uniformity of the base of the bullet is the the most sensitive to accuracy.

Aloysius wrote:

And I can understand that you buy waxed wads, but I live in the land of beer, so beer-cards are more available and are easely transformed into waxed wads. Besides: when you collect some beer-card and buy a set of punches, you always have wads available in all kind of calibers (and cheap). They recommend to load BP / over-powder waxed card / soft lead bullet sized to .458" I've tried that same bullet in the 45/70, but not with great succes. BTW: for targetshooting it's OK to look for harder bullets, for hunting it's better to use soft ones. (and the soft bullets usually ask for BP or its equivalents) And I see advices for loading... please take also into account the use of gass-checks or not. They do make much difference. And as Elvis all ready mentioned: pay attention to the base of the bullet! The front will allow much more differences than the base and when you ruin the base while seating the bullet...

......I like to have my lead cast more to the softer side of Bn-11-13 , over the years can't count the number of different loads and combinations I've tried .
......As for the wads I've got all the cutters and different thickens of papers, but just call me lazy it's too easy to order. . www.trackofthewolf.com/ as I use their cleaner and some of my brass.
...As I told Elvis ,Yes I pay attention to the base of the bullet on my sizing. When the wax happens to build-up on the sizing rod they become lope sided (flyers). I always stand them up-right and look at them on a level surface .
.... One thing I'm gonna try after read here about re-forming the tip of the 22-bullets www.huntingnut.com/ind...mp;t=13812 . Is running some of the cast though the sizer again paying closer attention too the pressure on the sizing .
,,,, Edit,,,,Oops, forgot to mention that the store bought 405-gr I've been using.were supposes to be sized After using most of this old 500 bullet size box (probably over a 10-yr period)I finally mic.'d them they run .456-.459 . Duh ,I'll check next time . couple thousands can make a difference in some barrels . My old barrel likes the .459's .
...As Vince pointed out on the breathing , also wondering about maybe about the check weld after adjusting the rear sight (Lyman) 1/4 inch , can make a difference on the sight picture .

Pete, please don't think I was critisising you. I just want to emphasize that shooting, reloading and hunting with blackpowder is based on totally other "sience" than smokeless.

And be happy you can buy all that kind of stuff. I live in a land where you even had to search all shops for new wads for a cal. 12. So only fools would reload shotguns (the reloads were more expensive than new cal. 12 rounds!) and it's quite normal that we had to produce ourselves the needed parts more often than in most other countries.

Aloysius wrote:

Pete, please don't think I was criticizing you. I just want to emphasize that shooting, reloading and hunting with blackpowder is based on totally other "science" than smokeless..

Aloysius ,, I didn't think of you criticizing me .
......But over the years ( shooting this old girl sense back in the late 60's )I've learned that with the blackpowder you try and keep your loads on the slower side ,don't try for speed and the old muzzle-loaders I've had are a whole lot different than the blackpowder cartridges . This isn't so much about the loading as most of my loads are pretty consistent on the groups . I can live with the 2-inch string , but why did it change, from the vertical to the horizontal string when everything is the same except the pointed and the flat ends. ? The powder and the 500-gr bullet are the same setting depth into the case. Only other may be the set back from the groves of the barrel .

that's what I said: with BP using the wrong grease/fat/wax will make the fouling hard and change the inside of the barrel each shot.
Try the same and clean your barrel between each shot, so you'll get the prove (or we must look for another explanation...)

Aloysius wrote:

that's what I said: with BP using the wrong grease/fat/wax will make the fouling hard and change the inside of the barrel each shot. Try the same and clean your barrel between each shot, so you'll get the prove (or we must look for another explanation...)

I'll try that next , I loaded some new test rounds yesterday , this .459 X 500-gr bullet is a new mold I just started casting with a couple months ago . Still playing with the powder and seating depth . As for the wax My mix may be still a little thin
.....Gonna try the wet patch on the next batch of test rounds , using a 1/2-inch dry fiber wad w/ 28 gr Blackhorn 209 . I put all these thru the sizer again making sure of the pressure . All the 405 gr (store bought) I sized them all at .458 , w/ 28 gr. Blackhorn 209 ( thats equal to 40 gr Black powder in a measure).
....I like the BH-209 over the H-triple-777 for the group sizes and the clean-up .

And like you I live in the land of beer drinkers

Vince wrote:

I’d up the hardness to around 15 to 18 mate...then adjust the load accordingly. I’ve always been told that vertical stringing was due to incorrect “breathing” by the shooter...horizontal stringing...I don’t really know.

Vince ,,, I think the horizontal stringing may-be because I wasn't holding the rifle level , tilting just a degree one way or the other from plumb

The sights are an ( 1 1/4 ) inches high on center of the bore ,,,,, possibly the cause of the stringing

Best deals on 45-70 here.
www.outdoorlimited.com...5-70-ammo/

OutdoorLimited wrote:

Best deals on 45-70 here. www.outdoorlimited.com...5-70-ammo/

Hmmm ...technically SPAM, but the link is very relevant to not only The Nut, but also this thread...but I'm watching.

on yah Mate...you watch em good.

so...does anyone/has anyone tried 210grn big lube projectiles in this case???? I can get them cheap enough $30 per hundred so if its feasable would try them...and what happens to a black powder load if you use lighter projectile...eg I can cram 60 grns of home rolled BP into case ,any idea how that will go with a lighter projectile???

Elvis wrote:

so...does anyone/has anyone tried 210grn big lube projectiles in this case???? I can get them cheap enough $30 per hundred so if its feasable would try them...and what happens to a black powder load if you use lighter projectile...eg I can cram 60 grns of home rolled BP into case ,any idea how that will go with a lighter projectile???

Elvis,,,,, I never tried any less that the 300-gr pills ,,, You would probably be OK on that load as black-powder doesn't change your pressure that much,,,,my opinion,,,, of-course you may be better off if you went with a thicker wad,,,,,,

not using any wad at all....

As long as the bullet compresses the black powder the weight won't make much difference.
Well, a lighter bullet will go faster than the heavier one but the powder burns at the same speed as long as it can't rattle around (that makes it burn real fast).