Sorry Handloader...I'm retired and I plan to stay that way. But thanks anyway...I like the idea of every morning is Saturday morning...

Funny you should say that though. My kids (5) have suggested that too...

Handloader, I think I may have been reading more into what you said than what you intended. I was looking for some hidden reason for what you wrote. You mentioned talkers & authorities on subjects that mislead those who are new to the sport. If they in fact mislead, they become untrustworthy.

It doesn't take much to get that label "untrustworthy", no matter what your level of knowledge is. The other day I was at the shooting range shooting skeet. Not my favorite sport as I do good at it & it's boring after a while. I like trap and sporting clays better. But, my grandsons & son-in-law was wanting to get into shooting clays & I said this would be a good place to start as I did some 40 years back.

Since they were new to the sport, they needed some advice. Some other's were shooting with us. One in particular, I was told, had all kinds of titles for competition skeet shooting, an authority on the subject. I was instructing my clan on barrel swing, lead, technique & etc., when the authority kept saying to do something totally different. By the time We got to station 3, I told my clan to listen to him. The score at the end was 25 of 25 for me and 19 of 25 for the guy with all the titles. We shot 2 more rounds & I missed no birds, the guy with the titles ended with 66 of 75 for the day. I was made out to be the untrustworthy one.

Me & my clan were there again this last Saturday. This time we were able to shoot by ourselves, and again we shot a round where I had to give advice, based upon my knowledge. Their scores went up. The next round had them all shooting in the 20's of 25. My grandsons & son-in-law said my way was easy compared to what the expert had them doing a week earlier. A week earlier the expert had them doing things that even he didn't do, but, after the shoot gave all kinds of excuses for his poor performance. I made one comment to him about how to minimize his barrel swing that would improve his score. He said, "If I thought I needed your advice, I would have asked for it".

The term Patawah was from starwars, meaning apprentice or student. I may have misspelled the word.

Trust me, Handlaoder, I value your opinion and like to draw from your expertise like so many others here, & I think Dr. Handloader fits you
Keep it coming...

Thanks George for the post and clarification. I enjoyed your example and find it instructive. I have no shotgun skills and admire those that can break 25/25! We have a nice Wingmaster, early 70s edition, at the shop for $225 in perfect condition; it might be my first shotgun!

With the changeover at Ben Avery, I believe the Sporting Clays center is going to change for the better. Lots of money has been poured into the endeavor and some top grade personnel will be overseeing the operation.

I hope you were able to put your Weatherby to good use this season. I didn't draw a single tag in Arizona, but, was able to obtain a landholder tag in New Mexico for mulie buck. My 14 year old grandson got his second bull elk, a nice 360+ pointer. My 12 year old grandson got his Coues buck, a 105 pointer and my son got a B&C class Alaskan moose, so, as you can imagine, the pressure is on. Maybe, that old Model 71 will speak true once again.

The quality of the members determine the quality of the forum. While there are larger forums, few have the warmth of this one. I can see the whole group of HuntingNutters sitting down at a very large table happily sharing pizza, but, perhaps, disagreeing on the toppings.

Now that the Dems have taken the House and, probably, the Senate, this election has served to define what is needed for 2008. That Presidential race may be the most critical election so far as it relates to the 2nd Ammendment and the freedoms it guarantees. I hope we will all take an active role in promoting and working for candidates that understand that the entire foundation of our freedoms are based on private firearm ownership. Being "uninvolved" is no longer an reasonable option.

Onward

Ya Handloader, the Democrats are in. What I don't understand is how this happened with so many states recently passing CCW programs. I can't believe this is all about Iraq. I have a feeling the voter turnout was low and as a result the Democrats had their way. When the wife & I went to vote, we were prepared with our sample ballots all filled out, but, there wasn't any other voters present. We got in and out in minutes. You are right, we all need to be involved.
Keep it coming...

Hey Bushy, I'm with you. Every day is Saturday. Didn't know for sure how I'd like retirement, but, I'm as busy as ever. It's just that I do what I want when I want and not at someone else's beck & call. Life is great
Keep it coming...

You bet it is...And, like you, I'm always busy with what I want to do. Went riding this morning and am waiting for the farrier. Lunch...Most importent right now...

Bushy you da man !! I only have two modern pistols a WW2 issue 1911 and a Ruger P90DC .. The rest are SA revolvers .. All are 45's of course ..
Good Gunners Mate I are Bushy ya ole hole snipe !!

Bushy! How are you doing? Retirement: Six Saturdays and one Sunday.

Handloader: Well said! Every hunter or gun owner is an individual, and as such, has his opinion, right or wrong.

Some are beginners, never having had the benefit of armed forces weapons training, or hunter education, and just don't know better. We do all we can to correct them, and show them the right way, especially where safety is an issue. As you said, some "know it all", and don't want to hear it. like the old guy that was pointing the Glock at my belly button in a local gun store.

Both he and the clerk were surprised when I ordered him to stop pointing it at me. I thought I was rather polite and restrained, under the circumstances. I didn' t care if he agreed, or understood. He was to stop that NOW!

Others develop the interest in guns , and pass through several phases, until they know enough to pass on their knowledge to others. Hopefully, by the time they do that, they will have studied and learned enough so their advice will be, at the worst, harmless. That's not always the case, though.

Then there are the scary ones, who are opinionated, and know just enough to be dangerous, and unfortunately, some have gravitated to law enforcement. They epitomize the suposedly Arabic saying: "He who knows and does not what he knows, is a fool; shun him".

I was at our public range one day, when a police department was doing training on half of the range. They wanted to kick everybody else off, but range personnel told no, it was a public range. I observed some very unsafe practices from a couple of the officers. They did not wish to take instructions.

In contrast, there was a fellow and his girl at the range the same day, and she had not shot much. We were all interested in how she ws doing, when she said, very excited, "I hit it right in the middle!" We asked what gun she was using, and she pointed and said "The black one." Wellll...O.K. : looked like a Glock to me.

Then her fellow handed her the AR 15. I had never seen it happen before, but she cuddled up to that rifle, took a shot to be sure it wouldn't bite, then proceeded to knock the center out of the target. She handed the rifle back to her friend with a great big smile. A new fan had been created.

I had a co-worker, who is the office stool pigeon, who owns quite a selection of weapons. He has a loose concept of safety, and an inflated sense of his own importance. His sighting in consists of getting a round or two to "cut paper".
He becomes really upset when someone attempts to correct an attack of the stupids.

There are the loudmouths, who unfortunately get more press than the large majority of responsible gun owners and hunters.

Responsible hunters and gun owners don't get much press, because they (we) aren't exciting enough. That's why the anti-hunters can get good press, because they only have to taunt one peckerwood till he retaliates, and BOOM! front page stuff!

If the gun/hunting question could be debated with facts and logic on both sides, it would cease to be an issue in about 15 seconds, but our society, particularly the young, are not taught clear, logical thinking. Slogans replace facts, and feelings replace facts and logic. Pereception becomes reality. (You're going to shoot BAMBI?)

But, we have to keep trying. If we do not become educated and active, and force our elected representatives to do OUR will, there will be grave consequences for the entire nation. There are too many lazy and uncaring people who will not concern themselves with the dangers to our way of life.

Example: How many forum are members of the National Rifle Association? Why not? That organization is the main reason that we still are able to own weapons, hunt and shoot. It only costs $35 a year, and for the young studs and studdettes, a life membership will save money over the long run.

Personally, I find the publications BORING, but will continue to renew my membership, if only to resist those who would turn the USA into another socialist country, like Germany, France, Cuba, (remember Eliaan Gonzales, and the shameful photo of the guy with an MP 5 taking him away from his relatives, by order of the U.S. Attorney General?) and Russia.

We have just witnessed what apathy, lack of knowledge, and a biased media have wrought.

Sniper: superb post, sir. Good stuff, all. Thanks.